NEWSMAX

Standpoint, there's so many companies that want to own the experience, and I don't want to talk to your agent. I want my agent to be able to use your system in the way it thinks it's best. But then they push their own agent and they block my agent and I just go somewhere else. Well, ultimately, we don't see how that will play out. But let me use my agent. I like my agent. Make your service good so my agent can use it. Now we have like the agent wars, I feel. Yeah. Like there's big companies that block their website. Yeah, Fucking ancient wars. Here's an example. So shopping, going back to shopping. There's all these, let's say, like, companies that make sneakers, right, that are super desirable and there's more demand than supply. Well, they've had bots trying to, for a long time, block other bots forever. And now people are just going and they want a generic pair of sneakers. And they're getting blocked. Right. And even like an agent that is sufficiently aligned to the user is going to. You can just set it, hey, when this thing drops, go and make sure that we're the first person to buy it. And yet that's the thing that, like, the companies have been trying to block for. Well, if you cling on to your old ways without rethinking how else we could do it, maybe you have to rethink some system. Maybe the who clicks fast enough is no longer the right way. I don't know. I bought like the Steam machine and there was just like a window of a week where you could register and then date the lottery. That doesn't matter if my agent clicks in 0.1 seconds or as a human click in one hour. Everyone gets the same chance. So there's a lot of ways where we just need to rethink how we did things in the past because it no longer makes sense. Instead, you want to block my agent, I buy something else. How do you think about.

So the thing I'm most excited about, because it has changed the way I work so much and I can't wait to see what people do it is like, obviously, dots, where I think this is just a new way of packaging a lot of the things that we were seeing working before, like, very long running, agent dictastic. The configuration that we have, like, the agent never stops. Occasionally it sleeps. But it's always online. Always doing proactive research, thinking about your goals, thinking about your preferences, and then you just steer it live. Just, you know, you would give feedback to anyone else. You just give your daughter a little bit of feedback. It learns. And so the more you interact with it and the more you teach it about your preferences, the better a job it does. And at some point, you know, a couple days in, you're like, wow, you know, just. I can't really quite imagine doing work without this thing. Yeah. So it becomes, like, super delightful, but it's something that you need to invest a little bit of time in. Do you think developers are already. Do you think developers are more in a mindset to adopt dots or more excited about sort of diffusing AI throughout their organizations to parts of the organization that may have not be like, not. They haven't onboarded workflows onto Codex necessarily because it's been, like, intimidating. Is that part of the next leg up here? Yeah, I think democratizing, and they're figuring out, like, what is the natural way to interact with these things. If you're like, oh, yeah, you know, like, fire up codecs into terminal. It's like, you know, it's capable of editing documents and it's capable of creating slides and. Yeah, and there were some incredible marketers and finance people that were doing that. But there is value to wrapping things up nicely, right? Yeah. And then also making sure that it's safe and it's secure, like right out of out of the box. That, you know, configuration is, like, really minimal. It does something useful, you know, within the first five minutes and. And you don't have to be super technical, but just kind of still feel the power of it. And that's what we're doing with dots. And then in the future, we'll ship a lot of the same technology and the capabilities right. In ChatGPT as well, for our 1.2 billion users. But really it's about getting to the essence of how much can you simplify, really? Yeah. Talk about the current state of the difference between the model and the harness. It feels like this year we went through the whole narrative like the harness really matters. And I'm interested in the lessons from both the harness matters and specifically Codex as a harness in dots. How much translated, how much similar lineage is there? Or is it possible we're even in a different regime? And I'm using the wrong metaphor. It's like this interesting tension between the model and the harness. And you always build the harness a little bit ahead of the capabilities of the model in order to kind of make up for it. And then the next generation of models kind of catches up to that and then you have to delete part of your harness because it's actually holding it back. And so this, like this, it's very playful and dynamic. It's a dance. Yeah, it's a dance, right? It's this beautiful dance of the model. The harness, the Codex harness is used to power dots. So like the same open source harness that we have and then we also use it to power the agents API we have, which is like, you know, managed agents. And a lot of effort is going into this harness to just make it very efficient, safe, secure. And so I would say like right now that's most of the benefits that you get from this harness. Like it's just really a hardened thing. Yeah. And then on the complexity of the tools, it's like, you know, we're like just really, really minimizing that because the current generation of models just like so, so good. And is that how I should think about the specialist dots as sort of fine tuned harnesses for certain workflows? What is the mental model to sort of deploy those specialist dots across an organization? Yes, we have a lot of specialist dots at OpenAI. And the difference is that you use the existing systems within your company in order to provision. Got it. The identity and then the access and the machine. Okay. So we have them running on Mac minis. Okay. So we provision them like exactly like employees. Like we meant like a new little identity. And then you know, it's like it's got this iam and the roles. And so we have like, you know, very good security story there. And then we give them like a very premium machine as well because the model is incredibly capable under the hood. Like, you know, dots are like beyond PhD level. Right. And you know, if you look at Astra, it's just like incredibly capable at like computer use. So your dot can just use a computer just like you would. And so by giving them premium hardware as well, it just even increases their capabilities further. And so we have these set up and inside of OpenAI, they do all sorts of things, including procurement, for example. Sure, yeah. On computer use.

Companies that want to own the experience. And I don't want to talk to your agent. I want my agent to be able to use your system in the way it thinks it's best. But then they push their own agent and they block my agent and I just go somewhere else. Yeah, well, ultimately we don't see how that will play out. But let me use my agent. I like my agent. Make your service good so my agent can use it. Now we have like the ancient wars, I feel. Yeah. Like there's big companies that block their website. The agent wars. Yeah, fucking agent wars. Here's an example. So shopping, going back to shopping. There's all these, let's say, like companies that make sneakers, right. That are super desirable and there's more demand than supply. Well, they've had bots trying to, for a long time, block other bots forever. And now people are just going and they want a generic pair of sneakers. And they're getting blocked. Right. And even like an agent that is sufficiently aligned to the user is going to. You can just set it, hey, when this thing drops, go and make sure that we're the first person to buy it. And yet that's the thing that, like the companies have been trying to block for. Well, if you cling on to your old ways without rethinking how else we could do it, maybe you have to rethink some system. Maybe the who clicks fast enough is no longer the right way. I don't know. I bought like the Steam machine and there was just like a window of a week where you could register and then date lottery, you know, that doesn't matter if my agent clicks in 0.1 seconds or as a human click in one hour. Everyone gets the same chance. So there's a lot of ways where we just need to rethink how we did things in the past because it no longer makes sense. Do you want to block my agent? I buy something else. Yeah. How do you think about.

Standpoint. There's so many companies that want to own the experience, and I don't want to talk to your agent. I want my agent to be able to use your system in the way it thinks it's best. But then they push their own agent and they block my agent, and I just go somewhere else. Well, ultimately, we don't see how that will play out. But let me use my agent. I like my agent. Make your service good so my agent can use it. Now we have, like, the Agent Wars, I feel. Yeah. Like, there's big companies that block their website. Yeah, Agent war.

Standpoint. There's so many companies that want to own the experience, and I don't want to talk to your agent. I want my agent to be able to use your system in the way it thinks it's best. But then they push their own agent and they block my agent, and I just go somewhere else. Well, ultimately, we don't see how that will play out. But let me use my agent. I like my agent. Make your service good so my agent can use it. Now we have, like, the Ancient Wars. I feel. Yeah. Like, there's big companies that block their website. Yeah, Agent Wars.

I do think we have seen a 10x for one year speed up. And it's not that we made the model sample faster. Obviously fast and ultra fast plays a role if you want to go even faster. But that is not what we improved in terms of computer use. It's both the harness and the model. So when you think about the model, it's like, how much does it need to think before it can take the next action reliably? That's one element that we really improved. The other one is that we take safety super seriously. So we don't just click around and let the primary agent do things. We have a second agent which we call AutoReview, or internally we call it Guardian, which watches over. This primary agent is like actually, oh, wait a second, you're entering this sensitive information on this website. This domain is not quite right. You should stop that action. And so it intervenes there. So we also made this auto review model faster. Yeah. And then the harness, because we had Astra. Tejal talked about this. Like, we were able to kind of use Astra at scale in order to improve the performance of the harness, do more things in parallel, remove little stalls, and then just really innovate there as well. And it's like it's all open source, so you can go and dig and figure out exactly which techniques we used. And then combined all of this together and then we got this 10x speed up. Yeah. Next year.

This is just a new way of packaging. A lot of the things that we were seeing working before, like very long running agentic tasks. The configuration that we have, like, the agent never stops. Occasionally it sleeps. But it's always online, always doing proactive research, thinking about your goals, thinking about your preferences, and then you just steer it live. Just, you know, you would give feedback to anyone else. You just give your dad a little bit of feedback. It learns. And so the more you interact with it and the more you teach it about your preferences, the better a job it does. And at some point, you know, a couple days in, you're like, wow, you know, just, I can't really quite imagine doing work without this thing. Yeah. So it becomes, like, super delightful. But it's something that you need to invest a little bit of time in. Do you think developers are already. Do you think developers are more in a mindset to adopt dots or more excited about sort of diffusing AI throughout their organizations to parts of the organization that may have not be like, not. They haven't onboarded workflows onto codecs necessarily because it's been, like, intimidating. Is that part of the next leg up here? Yeah, I think democratizing. And they're figuring out, like, what is the natural way to interact with these things. You know, if you're like, oh, yeah, you know, like, fire up codecs in the terminal, it's like, yeah, it's capable of editing documents and it's capable of creating slides and. Yeah, and there were some incredible marketers and finance people that were doing that. But there is value to wrapping things up nicely. Right? Yeah. And then also making sure that it's safe and it's secure, like right out of. Out of the box. That configuration is really minimal. It does something useful within the first five minutes, and you don't have to be super technical, but just kind of still feel the power of it. Right. And that's what we're doing with dots. And then in the future, we'll ship a lot of this, the same technology and the capabilities that, you know. Right. In ChatGPT as well. Yeah. For 1.2 billion users. But really, it's about, like, getting to the essence of, like, you know, how much can you simplify, really? Yeah. Talk about the current state of the difference between the model and the harness. It feels like this year we went through the whole narrative like the harness really matters. And I'm interested in the lessons from both the harness matters and specifically codecs as a harness in dots. How much translated, how much similar Lineage is there or is it possible we're even in a different regime? And I'm using the wrong metaphor. It's like this interesting tension between the model and the harness. And you always build the harness a little bit ahead of the capabilities of the model in order to kind of make up for it. And then the next generation of models kind of catches up to that and then you have to delete part of your harness because it's actually holding it back. And so this is very playful and dynamic. It's a dance. Yeah, it's a dance, right? It's this beautiful dance of the model. The harness, the Codex harness is used to power dots. So like the same open source harness that we have and then we also use it to power the agents API we have, which is like managed agents. And a lot of effort is going into this harness to just make it very efficient, safe, safe, secure. And so I would say like right now that's most of the benefits that you get from this hard. It's like it's really a hardened thing. And then on the complexity of the tools, it's like we're like just really, just really minimizing that because the current generation of models is just so, so good. And is that how I should think about the specialist dots as sort of fine tuned harnesses for certain workflows? What is the mental model to sort of deploy those specialist dots across an organization? We have a lot of specialist dots at OpenAI. And the difference is that you use the existing systems within your company in order to provision the identity and then the access and the machine. Okay, so we have them running on Mac minis. Okay, so we provision them like exactly like employees, like we melt. We meant like a new little identity. And then, you know, it's like it's got this iam and the roles. And so we have like, you know, very good security story there. And then we give them like a very premium machine as well because the model is incredibly capable under the hood. Dots are beyond PhD level. And if you look at Astra, it's just incredibly capable at computer use. So your dot can just use a computer just like you would. And so by giving them premium hardware as well, it just even increases their capabilities further. And so we have these set up and inside of OpenAI they do all sorts of things including procurement, for example.

Knows we had two great merges today that are a little bit under the radar, actually. Okay. One of them is that we completely rewrote chatgpt.com in the last five weeks to be the Codex app. Wait, your PIN tweet? Yes. It says I'm going dark for six weeks or something like that. Right. That's what this was. Yeah. Okay, now we know. So now we've got the same Codex desktop experience. You're used to the ChatGPT desktop experience. It's now chatgpt.com. okay, got it. Then the second merge that we've done is now by default ChatGPT work on the desktop. Yes. Works on the cloud and still has access to your local machine. Got it. So you've got these threads everywhere. Yes, Codex Cloud we launched today. Well, what that means is by default you will be able to do something that needs a file system that needs some local ish compute even though it's in the cloud. You won't have that tension between Am I just in a ChatGPT thread? That's sort of like short lived versus I got to go to my computer now by default you have more cloud access. Yes. One of the things that we really like about all of our new products today, whether that's the dots, The Codex Cloud, ChatGPT work, all of this stuff is running in the cloud and has access to your local machine if it needs it. So if you've got files on your local machine, if you're logged into all of your browsers on your local machine, the whole system, we are working on this merge and we are next working on the toggle merges.

And now I'm here in this crazy itown. Yeah. I'd like to go back because I think there's so much of your previous work that leads into the announcements today. The moment in AI, broadly, personal agents, obviously. But can you just retell us the story of where did the idea for OpenClaw come from? What was the initial spark? What got you started there? My spark is annoyance. Annoyance? Yeah. I do something, you talk about it. Emotions. I also have emotions. That doesn't mean my computer doesn't work as fast or as well as I would. I get annoyed. Yeah. But now in this day and age, it's like you don't have. You can use that annoyance. Yeah. And just like, let's fix it. Yeah. And then the fact that I couldn't really just talk to my computer. Yeah. That annoyed me. Like, this is so. This all feels so crafty. Isn't there a better way? And then I just explored those better ways and I keep exploring those. Those better ways. You know, I talked about it inside. My whole thesis is that whatever workflow we think we have right now, it's already outdated. We cannot catch up with the models. Just think about how much new things you can do. Because now Luna is too cheap to meter. Now you have ultra fast. It's like, wait, so I don't have to do 50 terminal windows because I can actually stay in focus. It completely changes things again and it's like, we can keep up building. Yeah. What do you think? As you look back on the boom of openclaw, what do you think the key ingredients were? Was it the connectors? Was it the connections? Was it being able to communicate to your computer from anywhere? I think I just showed people a different way how to use AI and so many were stuck in this world. Oh, it can summarize my email. No, it can install stuff on your computer or buy things for you or, like, do whatever you want that you can do in your computer if you just only give it the right tools. And I packaged it in a way that was weird and interesting and also felt a little bit different. You know, instead of like giving you a wall of text, it felt a little bit more like lobsterish human. Ish. It was interesting. It showed people a new way and it had some unique ideas, like, what about if your AI could actually just be proactive? Yeah. You know. Yeah. Even though, like, some of it was like token burning. Yeah. But some of it was genuinely cool and surprised people. So I think this day and age, it's all about ideas and imagination. Yeah. Where do you. I mean, it was such an amazing moment because it felt like the sort of hacker culture that this entire town was built on. Yeah. Like exploded again. People are getting back into hardware. The main thing is like, you know, you kicked off an entirely new paradigm. You set like the whole industry on fire. In many ways. Everyone. Everyone started using it, seeing it, and then immediately thinking, how do we make this, like, commercially viable to be able to scale from hackers that are. That are buying Mac Minis into. Into something that everyday people can use. And I feel like in some ways it's surprising that it's given how good the models are, that it took another six months to actually get to this moment right now where there's more excitement than ever around personal agents. Like, in some ways, like, you saw this, the roller coaster, right. You saw this curve of excitement and then, hey, this is maybe isn't ready for like a billion people to use. And then now we're back to the point of like, okay, isn't that classical Gartner hype cycle? And I honestly, I wish it would have been less hype. Sure. Like, it's kind of like this roller coaster where like. Yeah. And then like, it gives you like, holy fuck, you know? So I definitely had like a massive hype cycle with like inflated things. What Open Club would do for you. Completely decide of what he could actually do. And then you had all these insane stories. And then of course, people tried it. They're like, no, it doesn't quite work like this because there's still limitations. Models were not as good, the software was not as good. Of course, everything's still hard. Everything is still hard. And people were expecting this perfect, magical thing that one guy slopped in the basement. The ultimate slop green. No, it was really a slop grenade for you threw it over to San Francisco. Well, you were one of the first people to come out and just be like, yeah, it's all. It's so vibe coded. And you were unabashed about it. And that comes with a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses. But here is the thing, and it's free. You can make your own decisions. You can go rewrite the whole thing yourself, one line at a time if you want. And people did, many times. Yeah, exactly. How do you think the.

Casey, welcome to the show. Good to see you. How you doing? Has that been on the table? This has been on the table. My wind's been trying to take it out. It survives. Why don't you introduce this? What is this thing? Oh, you have one? Funny you should ask. Funny you should ask. No. So this is the. This is the first chromatic transparent custom chromatic that we made at my house. I love this styling. Yeah. For this event today. Yeah. We made. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say the number. We made 8,000 of them. Wow. To make sure every attendee could leave with them. Fantastic. Leave with one. Yeah. I will say that. Breaking news. Yes. This was announced on stage by Sam, like an hour and a half ago. There's one currently on eBay for 4,000. I was gonna ask you. They got a trade in the aftermarket. Yeah. Arbitrage. A lot of people are like, I'm gonna wait to get home to flip this. No, not some enterprising attendee today who saw an opportunity and just got in there and boom. But the specific integration, of course, Codex, Vibe coding. The idea that you can create a custom game that runs on here. Is that the idea? Yeah. You know, like what we do at Mod Retro. The reason why we're like focused on retro gaming is it's about the love and the fun of the game. Mine came with Tetris. It was fantastic. Right. I rarely take Tetris out of mine. Yeah, exactly. It's my anti Tetris cartridge. Stays in. It is catharsis for. Yeah. I did buy a crazy cartridge that had like some modern Technology, had like 400 games on there. And that was really cool. But you know, that sounds super unofficial. Yeah, it was. But. But what this is and what it is today is I don't know if I get in trouble for buying it. I think the person. We sold it, maybe we built a custom plugin. Yeah. For Codex. And it enables you to sort of Vibe code games. Yes. What's special about it is that you're not. You're not constricted to playing that in the emulator on your laptop. You can like. You can flash it to this cartridge immediately. Yep. It's amazing. And I think like the best way of framing it is like Torin, our CEO. Yeah. And his five year old. Yeah. Vibe coded a game and then he was able to flash it and hand the chromatic to Kiddo. Yeah. Have him playing it right away. Yeah. And it's something that like leans into the constraints. Like, you see, I'VE seen a bunch of demos that are like, oh, this new model is so powerful. I just gave it one prompt and it made a AAA Call of Duty G6 video game. And I'm like, okay, let's, let's calm down. You made a 30 second video of something that actually looks kind of janky and probably doesn't have anywhere near the breadth of settings just yet. We'll get there, but for now this is the sweet spot. Like I know that you can actually deliver something that's fun and entertaining and full featured and not buggy when you're constrained to this screen and just these buttons and you're not. Also, also the exciting thing is having having a Tam of 1. Right. Like there's so many, there's so many great ideas. And when I say that, I'm not saying the product but I'm saying like there are great games where for a five year old like he, they will be the only person that appreciates this game. It's combining different parts of their interests into something that would never have commercial appeal, gets shipped or made. Totally. Now it can. And I think that's been sort of the story of every single category of AI use case where you can now make things that like again, the example you were giving 10 minutes ago. Yeah. It's like you would never spend the money or the time to make this comparison website only for yourself on the fly. Yes. And now you can. Yeah, exactly. And I think it constraints is a great characterization because I think it dovetails with like what our mission is at mod retro, which is like embracing those constraints which, which amplifies like the why part. You know, like we launched the M64 which is our Nintendo 64 console. We were released that a month and a half ago and doing incredibly well. But so much of the feedback we see is from like old people like me. 45, I was 15 when Nintendo 64 came out, introducing it to their kids. Yeah, of course you get a dad or you get a mom with their little ones and it forces you because of those constraints, like physically sit with my kids and play Mario Kart. And when I think of that versus like when we catch our daughter, she's not allowed to play Roblox, but we catch her in her bedroom, like hiding in the closet by herself with her iPad 6 inches from her place playing Roblox. This just feels so antithetical to that because it is about like the social aspect, it's about the camaraderie, it's about the fun. And I think like that's what today in this partnership was emblematic of. It's like you can create something that's fun and they say, check this out. Yeah. It's so funny that I think a lot of. We're all parents here and I think a lot of parents are going through this. Like, I just want the same experience that I had for my kids. And then there's literally a company that's like, yeah, you can do that. It's such a simple value proposal. It's a funny philosophical exploration because there's a part of it which is like, is it just our old man nostalgia? Yeah. And you know, Palmer, our founder, has like a really curt response to that, which is, no, it was just better. Yeah, it was better than. And I think about that because, like, you know, we bought our daughter this summer a point and shoot camera. Sure. And it was like the biggest fucking deal for her. And like, she has a camera on her iPad. But having a point and shoot camera, this single purpose device, it meant so much to her. And I think that we're starting to see, like, technology start to go for full circle. Yeah. Like, we have these stupid little black rectangles of doom that live in our pockets that you can do everything on. Yeah. But there's something about whether it's like a wired headphone point and shoot camera device that you have to physically put a cartridge in to play a single game. Yeah. I think it's about the relationship between the person and the technology. And I feel like we've gotten so far away from that with. With the, the rate of innovation getting away from us. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't mean to go so deep. No, no, no. I think a lot of it. No, I mean, I've. I've spent. I mean, I every. I'll text John like twice a month, maybe every week where I'm like, everything that's good hasn't changed in 60 years. Right. And in many ways, like, having, like, machine intelligence is the only thing really that I feel like has been super meaningful. That's changed in that period. But when it comes to stuff specifically in the physical world, everything that's good has existed for old restaurants, old hotels. Yeah. Cars. Cars got worse, you know, a bunch of things. You know, homes got worse. All these different things. Toilet paper rolls or paper towel holders. Is that your always example? Oh, yeah, that's probably. He wants a paper towel holder. Invented in the 1960s. Yeah. I've got one that has a WI FI connection. Okay. You're on the opposite. It sends me alerts when I get low on toilet. No, but the cool thing is it feels like. I really do think that. I do think all the hardware that we use is gonna, like, change dramatically in a way over the next 10 years that it didn't in the last. In the. In the last 10 years. And part of why I think that is, is because you have thousands of super smart people working on these new paradigms and form factors, but then you also have the software changing. And the first time we had Peter from openclaw on, and he was just saying, like, he's now getting frustrated with the os. It's not just the things that are happening as part of the. Or on top of the operating system. He's like, he wants to go all the way. Because there's things that can just make more sense when you can generate an operating system almost on the fly. Yeah, I think it's holistic. I think there's room for everything. But I think what's been caught up in this tidal wave of innovation that I felt has sort of hit like a really aggressive inflection point in the last 10 to 15 years is that it sort of consumed everything. And I feel like we've kind of reached this plateau. We're able to pause and identify little areas where like. No, no, that doesn't need that kind of innovation. I think back to, like, if I'm. If I'm. If you allow me to be romantic about it. Like, I got. I think for my 10th birthday I got one of those yellow Sony Walkmans and I fucking treasured this thing. It meant the world to me. It was my most prized possession. I took showers as a kid, but I would take a bath just so I could listen to music in the bathtub because I had a Walkman. They could get wet. And I think about that now and it's like, technically, Spotify is better than having Led Zeppelin cassette. Yeah, it's better in every way technically. But it, like, Spotify will never mean to me. Yeah. What that device meant to me. And I think this romanticization of technology is something we've drifted away. And the change in medium changed the message. You completely listened to a whole album. And now. Yeah, for me it was. For me, it was ipod shuffle. Oh, like having which one? The little white one, the little square one, the clothing one, the gum. To me. To me, that was. That was the pinnacle of technology as a kid because I had. I had this thing that was like a quarter. You could like throw it up and down. And yet it was so powerful because Music is so emotional and like it felt like it could take you on a whole journey. Be as entertaining as watching a movie, just playing songs. You never knew what song was coming next. Yeah. Exactly. Part of the romance. I was like gambling. Gambling with audio. Like, you know, slot machine every time you press. Yeah. And I think we're gonna see. I feel it now. But this is my world that I live in. I think we're gonna see this sort of looking back. Like I, I, I run across the Brooklyn Bridge seven days a week unless I wake up in San Francisco. Sure. And what's interesting that I've noticed in the last five years is it used to always be people's iPhones and now the amount of people I see with these antiquated 10 year old point and shoot cameras and they do it in a sort of a flex. Yeah. Of course they're using this camera that is, is objectively a lower quality camera. That's what's on their phone. Yet it says something about them. Totally. In some ways, New York City is probably getting captured on film more now. Sure. Than when film cameras were like the only way to actually take a photo. Yeah. Because the diffusion, like historically it probably wasn't like, you know, thousands of people spread across the city at all times getting every single angle. And yet now that actually is what's happening. Constant. Yeah. My favorite 35 millimeter point and shoe is this Olympus. Okay. Okay. 150 bucks when it came out in the, in the aughts. Yeah. And they stopped making it whatever. Fifteen years ago. Every time I'd break one, I just buy it off of eBay for 50 bucks. Sure. I noticed a couple years ago that they weren't 50 anymore. They're like a hundred. Oh, wow. Okay. Then it was like 200. My wife asked me for one for her birthday and I went to buy it was $400. Got a corner of the market and now they're, and now they're almost unavailable. And I think it's, it's akin to like what we see with classic cars. Like people appreciate. Yeah. What these things were. I mean that's what makes me so excited about Retro point and shoot. Palmer's. Yeah. Palmer's tea. Some of the, he can't say anything but Palmer's tees. Like I don't like connected TVs. I don't like music and I don't like cameras. And I'm like, yes. Like the connect. Gotta go. I have this thing of like every, the frustration that I have with hopefully this isn't Just, like, my issue, and I'm, like, not updating the software. Let us hear it. Let us hear it. But the level to which, like, modern TVs, the software degrades to the point where you're like, okay, like, I'm gonna click. I'm gonna click, and I click too many times. And now I gotta, you know, like. Have you followed along with this LG controversy? Yeah. Okay. Break it down for those who haven't. Okay. The tldr is that the most modern lg. They have the best panels. The best panels, yeah. Oled. It's amazing. The most expensive. A couple of hackers. A couple. They have a YouTube channel. I apologize, I don't remember the name. They deserve a plug. Yeah. But they broke down all of the software and they determined that the microphone that was intended for, like, change it to HBO is actually listening all the time. So much so then when it wasn't networked, when it wasn't connected to the network, it would store the audio files locally, and then when it reconnected, it would upload it. I watched that and I was like, this is what Palmer's going on about. Desire to make a dumb tv. And then I realized in my bedroom, where I sleep with my wife most nights, some nights, you know, marriage, we have that LG tv. I know. I have one, too. So I unplug it from the wall. Now when I walk into the bedroom, and it's just like, no, but you remember how fast. How snappy old TVs were? You press a button. It was just instant. How snappy. I'm 45. For me, it was one. It was a physical dial with a long wire that. Immediate, immediate, immediate. We gotta go back to wired remotes. Yeah, I'll be the first one to buy that. Yeah, I remember. Sort of. Some of my frustrations with the. One of the meta quests was that I found out that I had seven passwords, because I had a keypad, a code, a meta password, Instagram, Facebook password, and an Oculus VR password. And I showed this whole process of, like, what it takes to just take it and then play a game. And it was like 15 minutes, and then. And then I play. And then I just found a video of somebody turning on N64, and you just Bing and you're on. You just turn it on. And it's the same thing. Yeah. You're playing the game. It's ridiculous. Our Samsung tv. Yeah. In the other. In the guest room. Yes. Yes. In the doghouse. Yeah, in the doghouse. In order for me to download Netflix, I have to sign into Samsung. I don't have a Samsung Pass. Why would I? And I don't want one. I just don't watch fuck Netflix on this thing. Samsung, it is just so, so much. They ask so much of us. I know. And it's not better for the customer. No, it's terrible. I just want to suck that data from you to sell you more ads. It's terrible. It's terrible. Flipping over to the creator economy, the creator side of things. I have this idea that with the advances in Vibe coding, there is an opportunity basically for someone to make a game every single day for mod, retro or any platform web games. And that muscle of doing something small day would compound, I don't know that they would become the next GTA 6, but they would become something. And I'm wondering how you think about creativity and daily rituals, new platforms in a time of rapidly decreasing cost to create whatever it is. Yeah, I have a super cynical perspective on it and a wildly optimistic. Okay, so the optimistic one is like, what is it? A million monkeys at a million typewriters and they'll eventually type out all of Shakespeare. Shakespeare. Yeah, I think that's, There's a. There's a math says that's going to happen whether it's vibe coding games or. So you were the monkey on YouTube, the type Shakespeare. Correct. Yeah, but I didn't have Vibe coding. No. And I didn't have AI video. No, but you did have GoPros and Canon 5 iMovie. IMovie and YouTube. You didn't need to shoot on film. Re. I just kept uploading. Yeah. And then like the line that, that share that often shocks people is I was, I think, very successful on YouTube. Very successful. And after, after, after. After seven years of a very successful presence on YouTube, I got 280000 subscribers. Okay. And then I started the daily vlog. Yeah, I started. I was the monkey that never left. The final monkey. 18 months later I had 10 million. Yeah. It's crazy. And I think if I had maintained that cadence, if the top of the funnel hadn't become more accessible, the cameras hadn't gotten cheaper, I hadn't gotten faster at editing because the technology enabled that that inflection point would not have happened. Sure. So I am, Yes, I am like the. I am the original monkey at the typewriter. But I think now especially what AI is doing, it's something that is much more complete. And when people shit on AI video. And when I say people, I mean me. Yeah. I think it's going to get to a point where there's going to be something that's made on A.I. that's 100%, that's undeniably good. And it's just going to sort of force people to be like, oh, I hated it because it was made with AI, but it was a really good fucking movie. And eventually that negativity is going to start to wane. It will be sort of undeniable. Sure. There's some cynicism in there. I also think that that will enable, especially when it comes to things like gaming, creating software. It's just when you open the top of the, the funnel that wide. Yeah. The amount of shit being made increases. Yeah. But so does the amount of quality stuff being made. Yeah. So I am highly optimistic that there are going to be these diamonds among a sea of coal. Lumps of coal. Yeah. That that will have real impact and be meaningful. I would also. Yeah. When I, when I think back, like, I used to work on little like iPhone games and I remember when I was like trying to just make Pong, right. It was like I was just trying to make the most simple possible game. The amount of like, frustration where you go from, like, you know, it's exhilarating because you, you're making progress and then you, you get like stuck on something and I was probably like 11 or something at the time. Then you get stuck on something for like two hours and it's like pure pain and you're like, how do I figure out how to get through? And then you get through. And part of that is like very part of that is like extremely positive and like worthwhile lessons around like hitting blockers and pushing through. But the amazing thing with AI is like just being able to bust through those like much faster and compound, compound those learnings and, and do an, an individual person doing 10 times as much in the same period of time and it's hard not to be excited about it. It's like a monkey with 10 hands. That's the best analogy for AI. We have to keep this monkey analogy. Yes. Well, on, on the video side, the thing that I've been. I think naturally everyone went from like, oh, okay, I'm reading way more AI generated text. And, and that was over basically the last two years. And now it's getting harder and harder to tell. And I, we even know people that produce a lot of AI written content, but they've figured out ways to make it not, you know, pan grammable at least obviously, until you. And now I just Notice like way more, way more like AI video. Which, which is like working for me on some niche like where I'm like trying to learn specifically about a topic. But then, but I keep getting hung up on this idea of like, did the person that published, that has owns the account, did they actually review this video? Because I think that that's where the like I'm looking. Yeah, yeah. Is there actual curation? Is there someone saying. Because specifically I'm thinking of, there's, there's an account on Instagram that does like sim. Sim racing, like okay. Tutorials, lessons or whatever. And so they're putting out like probably 20 videos a day on different topics. And a lot of it feels like generally. Right. But, but the, the where, where it will break down is like if, if you just, if, if the AI is effectively like reading an online forum and then just piping it into video and then that advice is like expired almost. Yeah. You're describing the modern news cycle. Yeah. Like that is what, you know, Instagram, TikTok and you know, X News is. It's, it's a, it's a variant of what you're describing. Fire hose. That's why there's so much. The, the noise to signal ratio has just gotten so convoluted and difficult to navigate. I don't know, maybe like a more acute example of something like that is like my favorite genre on YouTube is short esoteric World War II documentaries. Sure. There's a guy, my favorite YouTuber on the planet is Mark Felton. I love that guy. You know this guy, I fall asleep to that kind of. Me too. Every day when I get my sandwich at lunch and I sit in my office by myself, I watch one of his, like a 50 year old British historian. He is an objectively terrible filmmaker who makes the single best videos. Yeah. It's just him narrating it over whatever images he could find. I watched that and then I also watched these. 100, 100% AI generated. They clearly have a human editorial oversight because they're factually correct. Very well done. And they have all of the YouTube AI notifications all over them. And it doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me because it feels like I'm reading something with visuals that are simply there to support it. I'm very conscious that these are artificially generated images. They're just meant to visualize what something looked like that wasn't actually captured. And for me like those are the fissures. Yeah. I'm seeing as someone who's like an Anti. Who's a purist when it comes to filmmaking. Yet I'm willing to tolerate that. And I think that Delta is gonna, that's why I don't, I never like, AI content is already here. It's happening. There's gonna be 10,000 times more of it and probably a lot of this. But I haven't been afraid because when I, when I think about my favorite creators and where I'm actually spending attention today, it's like, it's, it's like the guy that you're just talking about, Mark Felton, there's another guy named hi Sutton who's just obsessed with like naval warfare. Yes. And just nerds out about it. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I figured. But like he'll just basically press record and he has a presentation like slides going through and he's narrating some video. He's like, I don't use AI. I just sort of sit here and talk. And it's like incredibly captivating and interesting because you're listening to somebody like the world expert on the topic who maybe uses AI to learn about some stuff now, like off, off air. But then he's just narrating it as a human and there's just all. I'm always gonna have time in my day for the hi Suttons of the world. Yeah. Look, it's a, it's a proliferation of podcasts on YouTube. Yeah. Like if I'm watching something when I edit my own videos, like I will debate a single frame, a 24th of a second. Does this fuck up my timing? Sure. Yet. Then I'll click play and watch a three hour podcast which is some dude talking for three hours. Cause I care about the subject matter and I think this is like the extraordinary range in people's appetite for what they're willing to give their attention to. And the idea that there isn't room in there for AI content, I think is misguided at best. Last question. What shirt are you wearing under that jacket? Well, I would like to, I do have a plug today. This isn't to sell anything because these aren't for sale, but there we go. Our former intern. Yeah. At Mod Retro. Jeremy. Yeah. Who's now. His title on his business card is Special Operations. Okay. I'm not sure we knew what else to give him as a title when we put him on payroll. He designed this latest mod Retro Merch. Yeah. So everyone watching can screenshot it and as a fun game, try and identify each of these letters because they each come from a different piece of a game. Which one got us hung up this morning? I think it was the T. We were going, I knew the T, I identified the M, the O, the D. I think I might have missed the E, the R. You knew the O. And I was off on the 64, but I was directionally correct, so no spoilers, but plenty of teasers. Go figure it out. Compliments to Jeremy. Head over to Mod Retro, get yourself a chromatic and start turn the T shirt into a playable game. Yes. Yes. I'd download it, I'd flash it onto my card. Well,

Not better for the customer. No, it's terrible. I just want to suck that data from you to sell you more ads. It's terrible. It's terrible. Flipping over to the creator economy, the creator side of things. I have this idea that with the advances in Vibe coding, there is an opportunity, basically, for someone to make a game every single day for mod, retro or any platform web games. And that muscle of doing something small every day would compound, I don't know, that they would become the next GTA 6, but they would become something. And I'm wondering how you think about creativity and daily rituals, new platforms in a time of rapidly decreasing cost to create whatever it is. Yeah. I have a super cynical perspective on it and a wildly optimistic. Okay, so the optimistic one is like, what is it? A million monkeys at a million typewriters and they'll eventually type out all of Shakespeare. Shakespeare. Yeah. I think that's. There's a. There's a math says that's going to happen, whether it's Vibe coding games or. So you were the monkey on YouTube, the type. Shakespeare. Correct. Yeah. But I didn't have Vibe coding. No. And I didn't have AI video. No. And when you did have GoPros and Canon 5. IMovie. IMovie and YouTube, you didn't need to shoot on film. I just kept uploading. Yeah. And then, like, the line that. That I share that often shocks people is, I was, I think, very successful on YouTube. Very successful. And after seven. After seven years of a very successful presence on YouTube, I got 280,000 subscribers. Okay. And then I started the daily vlog. Yeah, I started. I was the monkey that never left. The final monkey. 18 months later, I had 10 million. Yeah. It's crazy. And I think if I had maintained that cadence, if the top of the funnel hadn't become more accessible, if the cameras hadn't gotten cheaper, I hadn't gotten faster at editing because the technology enabled that, that inflection point would not have happened. Sure. So I am. Yes. I am like the. I am the original monkey at the typewriter. But I think now, especially what AI is doing, it's something that is much more complete. And when people shit on AI video, and when I say people, I mean me. Yeah. I think it's gonna get to a point where there's gonna be something that's made on A.I. that's 100%, that's undeniably good. And it's just gonna sort of force people to be like, oh, I hated it, because made with AI but it was a really good fucking movie. And eventually that negativity is going to start to wane. It will be sort of undeniable. Sure. There's some cynicism in there. I also think that that will enable, especially when it comes to things like gaming, creating software. It's just when you open the top of the funnel that wide, the amount of shit being made increases, but so does the amount of quality stuff being made. So I am highly optimistic that there are going to be these diamonds among a sea of coal. Lumps of coal. Yeah. That that will have real impact and be meaningful. I would also. Yeah. When I. When I think back, like, I used to work on little, like, iPhone games and I remember when I was, like, trying to just make Pong, right. It was like I was just trying to make the most simple possible game. The amount of, like, frustration where you go from, like, you know, it's exhilarating because you're making progress and then you. You get like stuck on something. And I was probably like 11 or something. Something at the time. Then you get stuck on something for like two hours and it's like pure pain. And you're like, how do I figure out how to get through? And then you get through. And part of that is, like, very. Part of that is, like, extremely positive and, like, worthwhile lessons around, like, hitting blockers and pushing through. But the amazing thing with AI is like, just being able to bust through those, like, much faster and compound. Compound those learnings and do an individual person doing 10 times as much in the same period of time, and it's hard not to be excited about it. It's like a monkey with 10 hands. That's the best analogy for it. Exactly. We have to keep this monkey analogy. Yes. Well, on the video side, the thing that I've been.

I mean, I gotta go. I have this thing of, like, every. The frustration that I have with. Hopefully this isn't just, like, my issue. And I'm, like, not updating the software. Let us hear it. Let us hear it. But the level to which, like, modern TVs. The software degrades to the point where you're like, okay, like, I'm gonna click. Yeah, I'm gonna click. And I click too many times. And now I gotta, you know, like. Have you followed along with this LG controversy? Yeah. Okay. Break it down for those who haven't. Okay. The tldr. Is that the most modern lg? Yeah. They have the best panels. The best panels, yeah. Oled. It's amazing. A couple of hackers. A couple. They have a YouTube channel. I apologize, I don't remember the name. They deserve a plug. Yeah. But they broke down all of the software and they. They determined that the microphone that was intended for, like, change it to HBO is actually listening all the time. So much so then when it wasn't networked, when it wasn't connected to the network, it would store the audio files locally. And then when it reconnect. Connected, it would upload it. I watched that, and I was like, this is what Palmer's going on about. Yeah. Desire to make a dumb tv. And then I realized in my bedroom, where I sleep with my wife most nights, some nights, you know, marriage. We have that lg. I know. I have one, too. So I unplug it from the wall. Now when I walk into the bedroom. Yeah. And it's just like. Yeah. But you remember how fast. How snappy old TVs were? Yeah. You press a button. It was just instant. How snappy. I'm 45. For me, it was one. It was a phys with a long wire that. Immediate. Yeah, immediate. Immediate. We gotta go back to wired remotes. I'll be the first one to buy that. Yeah, I remember, sort of some of my frustrations with the. One of the. One of the meta quests was that I found out that I had seven passwords because I had a keypad, a code, a meta password, Instagram, Facebook password, and an Oculus VR password. And I showed this whole process of, like, what it takes to just take it and then play a game. And it was like 15 minutes. And then. And then I play, and then I just found a video of somebody turning on 64. And you just blink. Bing. And you're on. Just turn it on. It's the same thing. Yeah. You're playing the game. It's ridiculous. Our Samsung tv. Yeah. In the other. In the guest room. Yes. In the doghouse. Yeah. In order for me to download Netflix, I have to sign into Samsung. I don't have a Samsung. Why would I. I don't want one. I just don't watch fucking Netflix on this thing. It is just so much. They ask so much. I know. And it's not better for the customer. No, it's terrible. I just want to suck that data from you to sell you more ads. It's terrible. It's terrible. Flipping over to the creator economy, the creator side of things. I have this.

Why don't you introduce this? What is this thing? Oh, you have one. Funny you should ask. Funny you should ask. No. So this is the. This is the first chromatic transparent custom chromatic that we made at. I love this styling. Yeah. For this event today. Yeah. We made. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say the number. We made 8,000 of them to make sure every attendee could leave with them. Fantastic. Leave with one. Yeah, I will say that. Breaking news. Yes. This was announced on stage by Sam like an hour and a half ago. There's one currently on eBay for 4,000. I was going to ask you. They got a trade in the aftermarket. Yeah. Arbitrage. A lot of people are like, I'm going to wait to get home to flip this. No, not some enterprising attendee today who saw an opportunity and just got in there and seized it. But the specific integration, of course, Codex Vibe coding. The idea that you can create a custom game that runs on here. Is that the idea? Yeah. You know, like what we do at Mod Retro. The reason why we're like focused on retro gaming is it's about like the love and the fun of the game playing. Mine came with Tetris. It was fantastic. Right. I rarely take Tetris out of mine. Yeah, exactly. It's my anti Tetris cartridge. Stays in. It is catharsis for it. Yeah. I did buy a crazy cartridge that had like some modern technology, had like 400 games on there and that was really cool. But you know, that sounds super unofficial. Yeah, it was, but naughty. But what this is and what it is today is naughty. Naughty. I don't know if I get in trouble for buying it. I think the person should have sold it. Maybe. We built a custom plugin. Yeah. For codecs and it enables you to sort of Vibe code games. Yes. What's special about it is that you're not. You're not constricted to playing that on the emulator on your laptop. You can like, you can flash it to this cartridge immediately. Yep. It's amazing. And I think like the best way of framing it is like Torin, our CEO. Yeah. And his five year old. Yeah. Vibe coded a game and then he was able to flash it and hand the Chromatic. So, Kiddo. Yeah. Have him playing it right away. Yeah. And it's something that like leans into the constraints. Like, you see, I've seen a bunch of demos that are like, oh, this new model is so powerful. I just gave it one prompt and it made a triple A call of duty GTA 6 video game. And I'm like, okay, let's, let's calm down. You made a 30 second video of something that actually looks kind of janky and probably doesn't have anywhere near the breath of the set just yet. We'll get there, but for now this is the sweet spot. Like I know that you can actually deliver something that's fun and entertaining and full featured and not buggy when you're constrained to this screen and just these buttons and you're not. Also, also the exciting thing is having having a Tam of 1. Right. Like there's so many, there's so many great ideas. Yeah. And when I say that, I'm not saying the product but I'm saying like there are great games where for a five year old like he, they will be the only person that apprec game. It's combining different parts of, of their interests into something that would never have commercial appeal, never gets shipped or made. Totally. Now it can. And I think that's, that's been sort of the story of every single category of AI use case where you can now make things that like again, the example you were giving minutes ago. Yeah. It's like you would never spend the money or the time to make this comparison website only for yourself on the fly. Yes. And now you can't. Yeah, exactly. And I think constraints is a great characterization because I think it dovetails with like what our mission is at mod retro, which is like embracing those constraints, which amplifies like the why part. We launched the M64, which is our Nintendo 64 console. We released that a month and a half ago and doing incredibly well. But so much of the feedback we see is from like old people like me. 45, I was 15 when Nintendo 64 came out, introducing it to their kids. You've got a dad or you get a mom with their little ones and it forces you because of those constraints, like physically sit with my kids and play Mario Kart. And when I think of that versus like when we catch our daughter, she's not allowed to play Roblox, but when we catch her in her bedroom, like hiding in the closet by herself with her iPad six inches from her place playing Roblox, this just feels so antithetical to that because it is about the social aspect, it's about the camaraderie, it's about the fun. Yeah. And I think like that's, that's what today in this partnership was emblematic of. It's like you can create something that's fun. They say, check this out. Yeah. It's so funny that, like, I think a lot of we're all parents here and I think a lot of parents are going through this. Like, I just want the same experience that I had for my kids. And then there's literally a company that's like, yeah, you can do that. Yeah. Such a simple value. It's, it's. It's a funny. It's a funny example philosophical exploration, because there's a part of it which is like, is it just our old man nostalgia? Yeah. And you know, Palmer, our founder, has, like a really curt response to that, which is, no, yeah, it was just better. Yeah, it was better than. And I think about that because, like, you know, we bought our daughter this summer a point and shoot camera. Sure. And it was like the biggest fucking deal for her. Yeah. And, like, she has a camera on her iPad, but having a point and shoot camera, this single purpose device, it meant so much to her. And I think that we're starting to see technology start to go full circle. We have these stupid little black rectangles of doom that live in our pockets that you can do everything on. But there's something about whether it's like a wired headphone, point and shoot camera, a device that you have to physically put a cartridge in to play a single game. Yeah. I think it's about the relationship between the person and the technology. And I feel like we've gotten so far away from that with the rate of innovation getting away from us. Yeah, Yeah. I didn't mean to go so deep. No, no, no. I think a lot of. No, I mean, I've spent. I mean, every. I'll text John like twice a month, maybe every week, where I'm like, everything that's good hasn't changed in 60 years. Right. And in many ways, like, having, like, machine intelligence is the only thing really that I feel like has been super meaningful. That's changed in that period. But when it comes to stuff specifically in the physical world, everything that's good has existed for old restaurants, old hotels. Yeah. Cars. Cars got worse. You know, a bunch of things. You know, homes got worse. All these different things. Toilet paper rolls or paper towel holders. Is that your Ollie's example? Oh, yeah, that's probably. He wants a paper towel holder. Invented in the 1960s. Yeah. I've got one that has a wifi connection. Oh, okay. You're on the opposite. It sends me alerts when I get low on toilet. But the cool thing is it feels like I really do Think that. I do think all the hardware that we use is going to change dramatically in a way over the next 10 years that it didn't in the last 10 years. And part of why I think that is, is because you have thousands of super smart people working on these new paradigms and form factors, but then you also have the software changing. And the first time we had Peter from openclaw on and he was just saying, like, he's now getting frustrated with the os. It's not just the things that are happening as part of the, or on top of the operating system. He's like, he wants to go all the way because there's things that can just make more sense when you can generate an operating system almost on the fly. Yeah, I think it's holistic. I think there's room for everything. But I think what's been caught up in this like tidal wave of innovation that I felt has sort of hit like a really aggressive inflection point in the last 10 to 15 years is that it sort of consumed everything. And I feel like we've kind of reached this plateau. We're able to pause and identify little areas where like. No, no, that doesn't need that kind of innovation. I think back to, like, if I'm. If I'm. If you'll allow me to be romantic about it. Like, I got, I think for my 10th birthday I got one of those yellow Sony Walkmans and I fucking treasured this thing. It meant the world to me. It was my most prized possession. I. I took showers as a kid, but I would take a bath just so I could listen to music in the bathtub because I had a Walkman that could get wet. And I think about that now and it's like, technically Spotify is better than having Led Zeppelin cassette. It's better in every way, technically. But Spotify will never mean to me what that device meant to me. And I think this romanticization of technology is something we've drifted away. And the change in medium changed the message. You completely listened to a whole album and now. Yeah, for me it was. For me it was the ipod shuffle. Oh, like having. Which one? The little white one, the little square one, the cloth. Like, to me, to me that was, that was the pinnacle of technology as a kid because I had, I had this thing that was like a quarter. You could like throw it up and down. And yet it was so powerful because music is so emotional and like, it felt like it could take you on a whole journey, be as entertaining as watching a movie. Just Playing songs. You never knew what song was coming next. Yeah, exactly. Part of the romance. Part of the romance. It was like gambling. Gambling with audio. Like you know, slot machine. Every time you press skip. Yeah. And I think we're gonna see. I, I feel it now. But this is my world that I live in. I think we're gonna see this sort of looking back like I, I, I run across the Brooklyn Bridge seven days a week unless I wake up in San Francisco. Sure. And what's interesting that I've noticed in the last five years is it used to always be people's iPhones. And now the amount of people I see with these antiquated 10 year old point and shoot cameras. Yeah. And they do it, it's sort of a flex. Yeah. Of course they're using this camera that is objectively a lower quality camera. That's what's on their phone. Yet it says something about them. Totally. In some ways, New York City is probably getting captured on film more now. Sure. Than when film cameras were like the only way to, to actually take a photo. Yeah. Because the diffuse, like historically it probably wasn't like, you know, thousands of people spread across the city at all times getting every single angle. And yet now that actually is what's happening. Yeah. My favorite 35 millimeter point and shoe is this Olympus. Okay. Okay. 150 bucks when it came out. And then in the aughts. Yeah. And they stopped making it whatever 15 years ago. Every time I'd break one, I just buy it off of eBay for 50 bucks. Sure. I noticed a couple years ago that they weren't 50 anymore. They're like a hundred. Oh wow. Okay. Then it was like 200. My wife asked me for one for her birthday and I went to buy. It was $400 get according to the market. And now they're, and now they're almost unavailable. And I think it's, it's akin to like what we see with classic cars. Like people appreciate. Yeah. What these things were. I mean this is what makes me smile.

Congratulations on a great dev day. We will move on to our next guest. We have a few more hopping on the show. We have Alexander Ambericos jumping on in just a minute. We will see with him on all things codex. We need a slop grenade button. Being able to that's band in the chat. That's great. We could sort of simulate that if we have a remote guest on we could say hey check out I have an idea for you. What do you think of this? And then you throw like a six page. Oh okay. I was thinking a slop grenade would be like you go full back to Nickelodeon slime and when you push the button it just slams Tyler with it and he just uses slap. I think that's the one we got to go. I don't know. Oh wow look at look over here. Crowd. The crowd chasing chasing Sam around. They want more tokens. Got to be careful with this sign gong. Yes. Oh yeah that's.

How do I do this? Just however you want. Just with bigger. There you go. With authority. Thanks for having me to sign this. As big as possible. Big signature right there on the gong. Thank you. This is going in the Museum of Business at the TVPN Ultradome. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Great to see you. Thank you. Congratulations on a great Dev day.

No, I was like working on a little startup. Didn't Loupe launch 20 years ago, basically today. That's incredible if that's accurate. Yeah. I think September of 2006 was the launch and I was thinking about it because as we enter the moment of personal agents, there's obviously work applications, but a lot of the demos that I've seen people talk about are things that feel aligned to the original looped vision. It's like, if my friends are in town, let's plan a barbecue, let's order the food, let's go to the restaurant, let's get the reservation. And I'm wondering, is this a full circle moment for you? It's interesting. It didn't feel like that until right when you said, okay, now I guess it sort of is. Yeah. And I'm wondering how you have been using Dots, how you think this will actually instantiate itself into people's lives. It's so easy to lean into the work side, but this feels like a reinvigorating moment for OpenAI as a consumer company. Look, sadly, all I do these days is work. So I've mostly been using it and I hang out with my family, really the only two. But I have mostly been using it for work and it is amazing for that. And I feel like it has gotten me back my attention and time and ability to explore and do new things. And I love it for that. I have not yet figured out how to go use this to have more fun in my personal life, but I'm inspired to go do that. But you're optimistic that people will ultimately do that. I feel like OpenAI has been called the accidental consumer company. And at the same time, the vision seems to be like, actually get AI in the hands of people and maybe let's not end up in a future where that means everyone working 24. 7. Right. 100%. I think the world's always confused when we talk about AI, about whether we want. We're worried people are going to have to work too much or too little. But I think it's great to give people more time to hang out with their kids, do their hobbies, work on creative new projects. I think most people actually want that and I really feel it with dots. Yeah. So I, Yeah, I think people are going to get that. Yeah. What has the last. I mean, the last time we talked was a couple months ago or maybe more than six months ago on the show. It's been a wild time. Like a lot of things have gone right. Seems the. There's some numbers that leaked today. But it seems like some things change. How do you tell the story of the last six months or so? I mean, I think the answer is it's all just one jagged exponential that keeps going and probably the next six months will be even crazier. The technology has been capable for a while. It's clearly gotten much more capable. But it takes a while for technology like this to diffuse through society. And I think in the last six months, people are using it much more. And now with these sort of always on agents, I think people will again go through a period where they're like, wow, I can really use this in all kinds of ways. And this is like a significant new thing in my life that's helping me. Yeah. So is this a moment to sort of like, pay down the capability overhang right now? You know, when you were talking about how, you know, you can use this to like, do the stuff that we were talking about 20 years ago and like, book a restaurant and, you know, coordinate with my friends, I was kind of like laughing in my head because I was like, yes, you can do that. But it can also, like, solve the greatest on problems. And so the delta in capability between, you know, some of the stuff we're talking about now and what these models are so smart. Yeah. Can do is just going to take us a while to figure all that out. Yeah. What have you learned this year about the sequence of events? I was shocked by if you had told me that there was going to be hugging face and then Navier Stokes. And then after that I saw the first person said I used ChatGPT to book me a haircut. I would have not predicted that those things happen in that order. Like, I maybe would have predicted that they all happen in the future, but I would have predicted we get the haircut first. And I'm wondering if you've learned anything about not just predicting the future, but the sequence of events. I mean, one of the obvious things is just people want their lives to be a little easier. And actually, I think more people are interested in just their lives being a little bit less hectic, a little easier than they are in whatever Navier Stokes can do for them, or at least their direct experience. But I think the cool thing about this is that models that are this capable are going to be applied to make people's lives better in big and small ways in ways that we can't even really imagine today. And, you know, I think the fact that we all talk about haircuts and booking haircuts is like a it's a failure of imagination. But the way it gets corrected is all these people here. Sure. Like, as I've had a little bit of time today to talk to what people are building here, like, I am amazed at the creative spirit of what people are building for each other with this technology. And I think it's been, I think it's been one of the greatest surprises of the last six months is seeing, like, just how far people are pushing the developer tools to build this amazing new stuff. Yeah. Talk about.

Yeah, I know it's an exciting time. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Have a great rest of your dev day and we will move on to our next guest. Andrew Ambrosino is coming on from OpenAI. We will bring him on, have him throw on this headset and introduce himself. Because I believe this is your first time on the show, Correct? This is my first time on the show. Welcome, welcome. Good to meet you. Thank you so much for hopping on. Give us a little tour of your day to day, your role. Introduce yourself for everyone. So since the original Codex app, I've led that team who runs desktop from the Codex app to now. And I've also picked up leading the space team from the space product building. Needed some more on your plate? Yeah. Wasn't enough, man. Yeah, Desktop was solved. Give us an overview of your experience with, like, the merge, putting everything together. There's been so many hard decisions, so many band aids to rip off. I feel like, what's it actually been like? What's gone well? What do you wish you could redo? This is my merge shirt. Okay. Maybe introduce the idea of the merge, because there is that Sam Altman blog post from a decade ago about the merge, and that's a different thing. That's a different thing. Well, there's been a series of merges. Okay, should we merge them all together? We should merge the merge. We split. We merge that eventually. No, I mean, we had this great app with Codex and we had ChatGPT that served a billion users, and we needed to find a way to join these two worlds and bring the agentic side of Codex in this app into ChatGPT with chat work. Of course, when we launched it originally, there were still a lot of things that didn't match up. And so we've been working on merging those. We had two great merges today that are a little bit under the radar, actually. Okay. One of them is that we completely rewrote chatgpt.com in the last five weeks to be the Codex app. Wait, your pinned tweet? Yes. It says, I'm going dark for six weeks or something like that. Right. That's what this was. Yeah. Okay, now we know. So now we've got the same Codex desktop experience you're used to. The ChatGPT desktop experience is now chatgpt.com. okay, got it. And then the second merge that we've done is now, by default, ChatGPT work on the desktop. Yes. Works on the cloud, and still has access to your local Machine. Got it. So you've got these threads everywhere. Yes, Code Codex Cloud we launched today. Well, what that means is like by default you will be able to do something that needs a file system that needs some local ish compute even though it's in the cloud. You won't have that tension between like am I just in a chatgpt thread that's sort of like short lived versus I gotta go to my computer now by default you have more cloud access. Yes. One of the things that we really like about all of our new products today, whether that's the Dots, The Codex Cloud, ChatGPT work, all of this stuff is running in the cloud and has access to your local machine if it needs it. So if you've got files in your local machine, if you're logged into all of your browsers on your local machine, the whole system, we are working on this merge and we are next working on the toggle merges. Yeah. So question for you. How do you balance trusting your own instinct around product decisions? Because obviously you would never make a big product decision that you thought was going to lead to a worse experience with like real time user feedback around how things were. Because people, we were just talking with Andrew, people build up a habit around different flows and different ways that the product can be oriented and then they sort of get build an attachment to it. And so even if it needs to change, it can be jarring. But you guys are sort of like drinking from the fire hose of user feedback every single day. And whether you're taking like going offline for five or six weeks or whatever you did, I'm sure you're getting tags and comments and messages constantly being like, do this, do that, do this, do that. Lots of tags. Yeah. I think when it comes down to it, we want to put these capabilities into people's hands. And so it becomes obvious that even if for whatever reason we can't make it, we can't bring chat and work together quite yet. What we knew was that what we were getting out of Codex had to be brought to everybody. And now we feel similarly with Space, with Dots, all of this stuff, we try to put the capabilities into people's hands. We dog food it extensively internally. So we've got thousands of people who rely on the stuff to do every part of their job. So we get good feedback loop there. But it's all a work in progress. The stuff is moving incredibly quickly. As you know, lots of tags on X all the time and we love that. Can you walk me through how there's this culture of like side project. What was it? Side quest was the buzzword. Sometimes they get killed off. No more side quests. No more side quests. But sometimes they get brought back. Like all the computer use stuff that's going on, huge leap forward out of nowhere. But you go back two years ago, I remember Operator that was like, was it a side quest or was it really important work to do? Because it sets you up for this moment. And I'm wondering if there's pre history for any of the new products today, like Space or anything else that you've touched on where you're like oh ye. Actually we revisited some work we did previously in a product. It wasn't quite there. The model got better. We were ready to launch. I think most of the stuff that we released today is like a take five even just of things that we did internally, there were so many variations of dots we saw internally played around with. Some were local, some were cloud. Like there were so many variations of the stuff that we used. Space has gone through a number of iterations. We had part of chat called Canvas that we had up for a while. That's right. We've had a lot of internal knowledge based products. So we've gone through the revs on that. Codex cloud is obviously a full 2.0. The original codex was cloud. Then we got into a local agent era and now we're back putting the full local agent on cloud environment. So I think everything that you see today is one of those operator stories or that operator to Atlas to Codex. Yeah. Sometimes I think that the models are changing so fast that it's hard to get the product timing on these things exactly right. To the model when the model is best at it. Yeah. So sometimes we're slightly too early. Slightly. Right. But I think like the stuff that we have out today feels magical. Yeah. So tell us more about Space. What is the vision, especially for where that product goes, how it fits into like just a typical person's workflow in the modern era. Yeah. We find ourselves bouncing around between applications all day. Right. We're, you know, in this, in the Codex desktop app, chatgpt desktop app, all sorts of documents. We're sharing things across Slack. And so we wanted to make something that felt very agent native and felt like a way to collaborate with other teammates. There are dots as well. Right. Something that you can kind of curate. This set of teamwork that you're tagging each other in, you're able to use it in a way that feels like an extension of ChatGPT and so this is really the entry of Codex and ChatGPT into a multiplayer, more collaborative era. And we're going to do a lot more here. How do you think about actually the balance between how heavy your hand is on the instantiation of UI on the fly? I noticed this weird thing just happened randomly and just. Just, I believe, default chatgpt. I was asking, like, is it a particularly hot summer? And it pulled historical weather data from my local weather station, and it created this chart, and when I would scroll over it, it had haptic feedback where the phone would vibrate. And I was like, is that someone at OpenAI, like, being like, we should put haptics in this thing, or did the model do that? And then if I love that, am I able to sort of productize that within my organization to be like, the way we do charts at this company? There's haptic feedback like, how does this flow from what you get for free versus what you put your finger on the scale with versus what an individual user might want as a pattern? That's kind of what I'm. This is what I'm. I am very passionate about this subject. And I think, you know, a few months ago with. With Codex, we brought this visualize skill. Yeah. That kind of makes you Eye on the fly. It's. It can either be a full game, right? Yeah. In space, you can make a chess game and play it with other people if they have access to the page. Sure. That's kind of crazy. That is finally. Finally, the people are asking for it right now. It's like, we're split on this decision. Let's play chess for it. I think the one that you were deciding when I can. 1v1 someone in Rust MW2 out the box. Well, and the dot computer actually has a few games preloaded onto it. Oh, okay. Which is kind of fun. The DOT can play solitaire. You can watch it if you want to use. And I didn't set it off just to play. If I just want it to entertain itself and play background, I can do that too. If I'm not there. Yeah, yeah. I've had Codex play Slay the Spire from start to finish. I think the one that you're talking about with the weather, that one is an extra challenge because you can't have your instant chat model writing a full web app every time. Sure. Right. Yeah. And so this is one that we've worked on a lot. The research is finally kind of there to make it feel excellent. Yeah. Yeah. But then, of course, like. Like, eventually, that Gets flowed back to the models. The models get faster. I mean we saw the. What is it, eight, eight times faster is ultra fast. How do you think that that will change workflows for enterprises? Like, I mean, I think there's like a little bit of a groan at the pricing, but Tyler was just like, time is money. It is. I want to hit this all day long. How do you think people are responding to like the speed trade offs? Is that like a new core skill for people in understanding how to size, how to size workloads and actually get the allocate resources? Or is this something that it should be abstracted is quickly being abstracted. I like to say time is money. Save both. Okay, fantastic. Off the cuff, it's a great line. No, I think, you know, ultra fast has been one of those things that for us, like you just, you can't go back, right? There's, it's, you know, it's not exactly the same as intelligence doing something that quickly, but it sure feels like it. Especially when we do these dynamic UI things. You're working in a page with your dot, you tag it in and you say, hey, can you drop interactive chart of our DAO growth over time and it's there. It's like you're doing a whiteboard session, but you can do it with all the live data from your business, right? And it goes off and it does the research in your data sources, it writes the little app for you and then you can just see, say like, hey, share this with my team. Right? Yeah. That feels so good with ultrafast. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. What else are you working on specifically to onboarding? We were just talking about like the boom of solopreneurs, like who is the core demo that you find the earliest adopter, what industries are, are on the cusp of getting online. We were just talking about the 3D modeling capabilities. Feels like what we saw in vibe coded SaaS products coming to the video game world. But what are you seeing on the horizon in terms of companies and developers here today that might stick out to you as somebody who wasn't here a couple years ago, but is now? It's hard to say. I feel like it's just really taken off. I don't know if you've, you've seen the chart from OpenAI internally too, which is just basically engineering was here, research is here and every other one is quickly following in sync. I think there's just some of the things that you do together, like pulling data, researching things in Slack, planning events together. I mean, this entire dev day is planned using coding agents. Yeah, of course. Of course they don't look like coding agents anymore, but under the hood they are. So I think we're seeing really just a lot of everything. Yeah. How many, how many weeks will you be out of a lock in until the next six week lock ins, I think. Yeah, going right back in. That's a great question. Just repin the tweet. I think tomorrow. Okay, tomorrow. I think tomorrow I'm gonna do another lock in for six weeks and we'll see what's at the end of that. Well, that's fantastic. I can't wait. Anything else, Jordy? No, this is great. Thank you so much for coming. It must be crazy. This is fantastic around right now. Yeah, it really is luck out there. All right, thanks, guys. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much. Up next, we have Peter steinberger returning to TBPN, founder of OpenClaw. Welcome back to the show. It's been too long. Last time we talked. Really much has happened since then. Either.

Just Carp took the wheel. Yeah. That's great. Well, there's more stories. We'll get to those in just a few minutes, but let's bring on Alexander. Welcome to the show. We're gonna have you throw that headset on. Do you need anything to drink? This is warmer water. Okay. Hey, guys, welcome. Welcome back to the show. Always great to see you. How is this dev day for you? I mean, apart from the outage. Excellent. Okay. Yeah, wait, outage? Global outage going on. Yeah, yeah, we had a bit of an outage during the demos. Like, you know, I haven't, like, deeply read up on what exactly happened, but, like, because we launched 6.1 Sol, I just immediately got hammered. Yeah, we did that. Oh, yeah, that's a. That's a lesson. That's like the meta. Meta connect. Last year, Boz accidentally set off, like, the. The key. The. The keyword. Keyword. The wake word. But every device in the whole space started going off and then crashed everything. So, yeah, positive framing is a champagne problem. But broadly, this dev day, I'm so excited. Like, when I joined the company, like, a little over two years ago, like, this moment is the moment I've been looking forward to the entire time. Okay. You know, like, we had this chat. We invented that paradigm. It was awesome. Informational, couldn't do things for you. Okay. Then we had coding agents. Agents that could do things. Awesome. That's the next level. But you still have to, like, really babysit it and figure out, like, what am I going to ask this agent to do? Yeah. Yeah. And so we're finally at the stage where I can go to someone and say, hey, if you want to do something manually, do it with Codex. Yep. If you want to delegate it, sure. Go use a dot. Yeah. Right. And this.it has your back. It figures out how to help you. Just helps you get so much more value out of this. So for me, like, I've been. I've been looking forward to this for years. Yeah. Does it feel like. Yeah, it's the same. It's the same. Sorry to jump in. But it's the same dynamic of, like, if you had a bunch of. If you basically had a bunch of people on your team that would just sort of flag information but then not take any action. They're like, hey, this thing, it's happening. Okay. Like, okay, like, why don't you do something about it? I like that. But I would actually say, like, Codex is actually more like a principal engineer, but who doesn't, like, initially unless you tell them exactly to do. It doesn't read like linear or like, doesn't check Slack. And so the super smart principal engineer. But you know, you have to make sure you sort of give it the right instructions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas.it's like you have that principal engineer because your dot has its own computer. It can do anything that you can do on a computer in the cloud. It can also connect to your computer. So if you have a really awesome local codec setup, it can actually go use that. Except that it has its own identity in Slack and so it's available wherever you talk. And I don't know if you guys have seen this, but it's. Or for anyone listening, the way that dots show up in Slack isn't just like a random name, like Wisp. We tried that. We had agents with random names and no one knew what was going on. It was a bit confusing, sure, but they show up with your username. So like, I'm ae. It's like AE in Slack. And so you have all these people and their delegates just doing stuff together. Principal engineer level capability. Or if you're not an engineer, just like maximum capability. Yeah. I mean, the demo that I saw just randomly through a friend was like we were looking for Sam Altman's headshot and we were able to delegate that to a DOT that was able to go find a file in a file system. That's easy, but just that little retrieval would be a couple clicks on a web browser. And now it's just not even a couple clicks. It's like searching around folders sometimes it's like, yeah, digging through stuff. And so, yeah, it feels like we're hitting this inflection point of leaving just the developer workflows and getting into everyone's workflows. Totally. And you always had the pro, the prosumer of the enterprise who was like, oh, yeah, they're a sales rep, but they also use Codex. And now it's like there is a product that's approachable for everyone. It feels like there's the expansion of territory that's happening within businesses. And then there's also like different types of businesses that are able to actually get a great value started with software development firms and software companies and are video game developers the next leg up. Who are you seeing here at Dev Day that you're like, oh, I haven't actually talked to that many folks in your industry. And maybe the progress in Astra is flowing through. I mean, that's what my experience was. I was modeling stuff in Blender. I haven't touched 3D rendering for a long time. And I'm building video games and stuff, and I saw that, okay, this is. We've crossed this. The spike of intelligence has spiked beyond what's relevant in this particular category. And I'm wondering where else you're seeing it or what's been the most visceral to you. So I agree that, like, I think for video games, like, the stuff we've been seeing people make with Astra, absolutely awesome. And so therefore, because dots run on Astra, we've just seen people having dots just, like, autonomously building, like, really fun games and stuff. So that's awesome, and I agree with that. But actually, I think the. The audience that I'm the most excited for to like, get even more capability is maybe like, solopreneurs or like small business owners, actually, because, you know, that's where you're. You're doing absolutely everything that your business needs, and you're just, like, swamped with all the stuff incoming. And that's where having a dot that just, like, has your back and is, like, managing all this stuff for you, doing the work that maybe you could have done before with Astra, but it was just, like, a lot of work to figure out that that work even needed doing is helpful. So I've heard, you know, obviously, a lot of great anecdotes from engineers, like, people waking up in the morning to kudos from their team because their team was collaborating with the dot and it helped them out. It's like, good job for having a dot that did this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is so fun. But we also have a lot of great anecdotes from, like, people in completely other areas. So, like, you know, running the launch, like, dots, going around realizing that, oh, this thing about the product changed, so we need to go update the blog or, like, you know, your travel plans for this conference have changed. So let me just, like, organize things for you. Yeah, walk me through the specialist dots. Like, is that a more of, like, a mental framing for the user to let them know that this capability is there? Is their actual, like, the Harness Matters narrative where you do want to go to that particular dot, or is it. Because I can imagine as a solo entrepreneur, it's just valuable to say, okay, I at least have like, one arrow in the quiver for legal, one arrow in the quiver for finance, etc. But also these models are pretty general, and The G&AGI sort of leads you to throw Codex Astra Ultra at every problem. So how do you think about coaching people through that dynamic. Yeah, I mean, so there's two things going on here. So we've got dots and we've got specialist dots. And the reason we're leading with dots first is like just very related to our mission, Right? Sure. The benefits of AGI to all humanity. And you know, when I think about product, I want that to be productive, palpable. Like I want every person to have direct access to something that is empowering them, extending them, helping them move faster. And so those are dots and those dots, you know, each person has one. You'll have more in the future. And it works, you know, extending you. So using your connectors, for instance. Right. So that's great. But when you think about how you like scale the amount to which this capability is deployed within enterprise, there's actually a shift that we're starting to see happening that these are a part of. Right. We, one of those shifts is like moving from local work on someone's computer to moving work in the cloud. And so specialist dots have their own computer, just like dots. The other shift is actually moving away from working with an individual's identity to moving with an IT managed, centrally governed, well controlled identity. And we actually had an announcement going out today about how we're working with Microsoft on that as well. And so if you are a team or an organization and you have a specific type of functional work that you would like to accelerate the whole team with, that's where you deploy a specialist. So it could be something like procurement or accounting. Those are some of the early places we've seen a lot of success. But ultimately, broadly we see that it'll be useful in many more functions and departments. Personally, I feel like, I don't know, maybe I'm just like too much of a normie, but I feel like this is the frame of mind that I want to be in. Obviously there's the merge where the AI becomes you and if I want to send you a message, it comes from me. But the AI is like puppeteering me. And I actually prefer the idea of like I have an assistant and they are their own entity and they have their own phone number and email eventually. And I can share information with them and they are on my team, but I am still me. And I think that that is something that I would bet on that being relatable to a lot. Totally. We'll see. I don't know how. Yeah, I actually made some like pretty funny mistakes as we were building this product that we had to like pull back. Yeah, yeah. And so like, okay, I Totally agree with what you said. And then I'll tell you about the. Someone like astrodot. What's he writing about me from Performance report? Well, that actually there's a lot of layers of defense that's not going to take that information. But no, it's more like what we've realized is that again, there's this kind of like this bifurcation. Right. Like, I want my dots to augment me, and so maybe I want to collaborate on an email. And then I'm good. I just did that from within the ChatGPT app and I hit send. Right. That should just look like me. But I approved that email to be sent and I made a mistake about that one I'll tell you about. And then on the other hand, you know, we had. We had for a while all these agents just sort of acting sort of as us, sending messages as us. It was like sent by ChatGPT thing internally and it was like, fine, but it kind of like started to get noisy. And so that's when we kind of iterated our way towards. No, we're going to have like a strongly separate identity. They're going to look different. Yeah. We've got these characters. Yeah. We're going to have like a name that, like, clearly is like Owner Dash Bot. Yeah. Right. And that just like clarified everything that was going on in communication. Totally. So. So it's awesome. And I love the idea of, like, look, sometimes the amount of back and forth and compute, that's going to be dedicated to some negotiation. If we're trying to find even just a time to get lunch, they might be our dots might be going back for a long time, but it's not going to ever be like, you opened your messages to me and it's a flood of messages because they were going back and forth. It happened below the fold. And then you can, you know, you can abstract that away as much as you need to. Agree. Very cool. I'm gonna set up a dot where every time I get like a startup pitch deck that's just clearly AI generated, it'll generate a playable video game and I can just go through. Go through the deck in the form of like. Yeah, but that's totally a thing you could do. No, I know, I'm joking, but it's. It's actually. So here's an interesting thing about. About space. Right. And sites, which is like, a lot of the tools that we use to do work today are optimized for human authoring. Okay. So what I mean by that is like, you know, like think documents. Right. Like, you go into a document and it's like you can type into it. Right. And the way that your document can look is, like, pretty simple. It's like text. Right. And like. Yeah. Various document editors have, like, fancy ways for you to go in and, like, move the images around and stuff. But it all generally kind of sucks because the tool is well designed for humans. Like it. I think those tools are good. Yeah. Even though they're a little inflexible. But now that we have dots and we're collaborating with them, we have AI, Like, HTML authoring is, like, basically free. Yeah. Right. And so, like, I love how space incorporates, like, HTML visualization. Sure. So you could just be like, hey, like, build me this artifact that I can click around or, like, literally put a game in the doc or whatever in the page, and it's super interactive. And I think this is like, sort of the paradigm shift that we're starting to. Yeah. How do you think about the road to. And the benefits of actual direct integrations? Because at the end of the day, like, if I have some service that's that I want to interact with, like, there are APIs, there's ways, there's computer use. At this point, like, everything is somewhat connected. Right. What's the benefit of actually directly engaging with OpenAI, doing a proper connection? What are the benefits? What are the costs? I mean, there's a few layers here. Yeah. I think it starts with. Yeah, now that our agents can use the same tools that we use, that is Computers, then there's kind of this baseline. Right. Like your agent, if you want it to and allow it to, it can go to anything. And I do want to emphasize that, like, dots have many layers of, like, safety protections, and one of them is custom rules. Right. So if you're a company and you want to limit what exactly dots can do with various tools, like, there's a very easy affordance for you to go in and do that. Yeah. But. Okay, so that's your baseline. Right. The next layer that I think we could talk about is, like, connectors. And mostly it's just like, it makes things faster. It lets your product be a little bit more opinionated, just improves the experience for everyone. Yeah. The other sort of form of integration that I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at, but that I'm really excited about is plugin extensions. Yeah. So, you know, we've long had this idea that, like, there's actually a fun debate in this industry, which is, like, to what extent Should UI be generated just in time for the user? We're doing a lot of interesting work here and there's some cool stuff coming out soon around that. But my opinion is that for UI that I'm going to click around in, I generally want it to be somewhat predictable so I know where the button is. I can achieve mastery over this tool. But we don't want to be the only people deciding that. We want other people to be able to build their own UIs for our users. So something super cool is that now, if you're a ChatGPT user, you can install a plugin that has a plugin extension that actually renders custom UI custom pages just in the ChatGPT app. If you're a developer listening to this, you have the ability to go reach your customers directly. The meetings plugin that we just launched today is an example of this. It's like a fully arm's length plugin integration. Yeah. So I feel the same way about on the fly UI generation, custom ui. I am excited about that. At the same time, I can, I can sit here and talk to somebody who's extremely bullish on voice interfaces and they think that like, everything should be vended over conversational voice interface. And I feel like OpenAI has kept enough irons in the fire across all these different paradigms. Is there a tension there? Is that deliberate? Is there an idea that to reach everyone, to hit 1.2 billion Mao or Wow. Like, you don't, you don't want to actually go all in and narrow. You need to meet people where they are across multiple modalities. Yeah, I would say so. Like, this is something Thibaut said earlier today. It's like at some point it's about the active intelligence and the interface stops mattering and you know, my, my, like, slight way of reframing that would be like, it's like the interface should just be whatever you want. Yeah. Right. So, like, I'm a product manager, so I spend a lot of my day in Slack, and so I mostly talk to my.in Slack. Right. But then when I'm commuting, like I was coming in today, I knew I was gonna have a bunch of conversations. I was just talking to my dot, like about the day and wanting to be prepared. Prepared for was like grilling me on some hard questions. Yeah. You know, Holly, earlier, the demo, the keynote today was talking about how like, actually the anecdote was kind of me. Like I saw her in this phone booth all the time and I was going to give her some Feedback and like, why are you in so many meetings? Like, shouldn't we be like not in meetings? And then she's like, oh, I'm talking to my dot. And I realized this and I'm like, wow, this is crazy. We've like unearthed a completely new paradigm. So going back to your thing about irons in the fire, like, I think that some of these things are kind of emergent. Like I, I really love talking to my dot over voice, but the way that that happened is the voice team that was working on dots did an amazing job. But it was kind of like we combined these two capabilities and because both irons were very hot, they combined really well. But if you had started from scratch, I don't think we would have gotten to such a great outcome. Yeah, I've noticed that. I don't think people here have this problem. But as I was thinking about, you remember this viral video, this guy Jim from Charleston AI, did you see this? Oh, he might have to refresh. Basically he has a retail store in Charleston that's physical store that you can walk in, you can walk in and he'll teach you how to use codecs and chatgpt work. And I've just noticed this thing where normal people outside of the tech industry don't just know that you can ask the AI, can you do this thing? And it's like, it feels like as there's 20 new launches today, and it feels like the biggest bottleneck is like effective product marketing to the sort of long tail of users on how to use these different tools. Because when somebody asked me, hey, can I do this thing with ChatGPT? I said, well, have you asked ChatGPT that like it'll sort of explain the general capability set and then maybe like even prompt you on how to prompt it, etc. But it feels like outside of San Francisco that's like the biggest bottleneck to like adoption and diffusion is just people not realizing that the best teacher for the thing is not Even necessarily a YouTube video about it. It's like being able to go back and forth. Well, I mean, two things on that. First, thanks for having me on the show. You know, the second point though, I think is at least when I hear that, you know, I think this is actually a product problem as well. Yeah, like if the product, I mean it's so powerful, right? These open ended sort of chat interfaces, you can ask whatever you want, but it's, it's hard to realize that you can, you can try that. Like, I find that very understandable and so that's part of why I'm so excited about DOTS in this era of active intelligence is that, well, maybe I don't have to realize that I can ask for help for finding the headshot. You know, it'll just notice that someone was urgently asking me for the headshot and so it might just go ahead and proactively research like, where is the headshot? And they come to me like, hey, someone asked you for the headshot. I happen to know where the headshot is already. Do you want me to send it? I think we are about to achieve this step function change in how much value people are getting from existing models. God is built on GPT6 Astra and yet it's going to unlock so much value for people. Yeah, it's an exciting time. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Have a great rest of your dev day and we will move on to our next guest. Andrew Ambrosino is coming on from OpenAI. We will bring him on, have him throw on this headset and introduce himself. Because I believe this is your first time on the show. Correct. This is my first time. Welcome. Good to meet you. Thank you so much for hopping.

We will have to make more efficient models, more efficient chips, and figure out how to build a lot more infrastructure. How do you see the user experience across the different models, the different cost and speed parameters being vended to the actual end user? Is that something you want to maintain forever? Because developers love hearing about 6.1 Sol and ultra fast Mode? Or are there consumers? I notice Dots doesn't have a model picker. I think people are really tired of the model picker and they'll like, model this, model that, model. We want to find a way to really simplify that. The dream is that there is a single model and it makes great decisions for you. And you can maybe turn a speed dial when you really need it and a cost dial when you don't. But we were talking about models that can book Haircuts vs Solve Navier Stokes. I think this model should be able to figure out a lot of the trade offs and we should be able to do a good job with routing. I think we'll always offer choice to developers. Yeah, sometimes you want to drive a Ferrari to the grocery store, sometimes you do. So I think we'll always offer that choice. But most of the time you don't. Yeah. You know, most of the time it's the minivan to the grocery store and the track and the model should, like, be able to make that smoother. Yeah. Do you feel like you have more or less clarity around the future? Thank you.

Somehow got mixed up and then you're like, you kind of wish it pinged you. What can you say? Any advice for, let's say, public company CEOs that want to maintain a startup's culture at scale? Because that's something like OpenAI is still a private company, but the impression of seeing how this company works is that it's not just like, yeah, we act like a startup at scale. It's actually like that. It's like incredibly scrappy. It's very small groups of people trying to do the impossible on impossible timelines. And something that you're doing is working because it allows this, like, incredible velocity. It's not just the models. Someone said to me a few days ago that joined OpenAI somewhat recently and had been at a big, kind of slowish public company before, was that the key is to have the work and expectations per person go up over time. And the way that big companies go wrong is there's too many people with not enough to do and they kind of like fight each other over like these fake levels of work. And if everybody is really busy with real impact and there's the amount of work per person and stuff to do per person keeps increasing, then you can fight the, like slow drag and politics of a big company. On the flip side of that,

Will be wrong about. It feels like that the leadership skill or basically having the mentality of a venture investor and somebody that's made a bunch of very long term bets makes people very well suited for today in the sense that having that openness to If I get three things out of 10 right, and I get them really right, then, then that's great. Like it, it sort of pays for all the other bets. One of the things that I think is coolest about this new generation of people building with AI is you can try something so quickly and so cheaply that if you have. If you are a developer and you have 30 ideas, the canonical advice that was correct two years ago is pick one and put all of your effort into it. Because you can't build 30 things. You can now build all 30 things and you can get people to use them all and then you can work more on the ones that work. So I think this mindset of lots of ideas, quick feedback and be open to a lot of things not working is great for this new era of how people build. I have one more question that we want to get you to hit the gong on alignment. You've been deep in the weeds, I'm sure.

Is to just send the bullet points. Yeah. I've told some people, just send me the prompt and I can, I can expand it myself my mind sometimes. How are you thinking about compute these days? There's so many different, you know, battles and different markets across consumer and enterprise. What is the plan for the next couple of years to build a lot more compute. Okay. One, one thing that OpenAI has that doesn't get as much attention is our chip program. Yeah. Which will start to come online in the first half of 2027 and will scale a lot in future years. Yeah. I think gives us a huge inference advantage for whatever like Watts we can find. Sure. In the world. And given the growth and demand we are seeing across consumer, developer, enterprise, really everywhere. And to say nothing of like, people are going to love dots and then they're going to say, well, can I have 10 dots or 20 dots or 100 dots or whatever. We will have to make more efficient models, more efficient chips and figure out how to build a lot more infrastructure. How do you see the user experience across the different models, the different.

Slow drag and politics of a big company. On the flip side of that, I feel like there's a lot of companies that are going through sort of a sloppification and they're fighting slop grenades. I've wondered if the like the correct KPI is maybe we should all be producing the same amount of words in our emails and it's okay if AI is involved, but you don't just want to take every text message and turn it into a 20 page document, right? We fight super hard against the slop grenade. Yeah. And the many slop grenades. And I think just like very strong cultural norms that if you are writing something and then you are having ChatGPT expand it and then somebody else is going to have it. ChatGPT summarize it back to your bullet points. The right answer is to just send the bullet. Send the bullet points. Yeah. I've told some people just send me the prompt and I can expand it myself. My mind sometimes. How are you thinking about compute these days? There's so many different battles and different markets across consumer and enterprise.

I have one more question that we want to get you to hit the gong on alignment. You've been deep in the weeds, I'm sure. There was a debate I saw. Is it an engineering problem? Is it a science problem? Is there a different frame of mind that we should be approaching alignment with? I think it's like all of those things, but it's certainly incorrect to talk about this only as an engineering problem. Anyone who says we have solved the science of alignment I believe is wrong in a very dangerous way. Like, we need to make more research progress. I assume we will. We have been great at making this research progress. And of course, there's a lot of engineering work to do too. You know, we need to continue to figure out how to build better sandboxes and better monitoring tools. But eventually, as we if we are going to create models that are like, much, much smarter than all of us, we have to actually solve the science of alignment. Have we considered moving away from the term sand?

I think we'll always offer that choice, but most of the time you don't. Most of the time it's the minivan to the grocery store and the ferry at the track and the model should be able to make that smoother. Do you feel like you have more or less clarity around the future than you did a decade ago? Because when again, I always encourage people to look back at your blog in the sort of 2015, 2016 era because there was a bunch of things that you and other people that were writing at the time just like pretty much nailed entirely. And I go through life now knowing that there's people out there that have like very accurate predictions around the future. And sometimes there's an incentive to share, sometimes there isn't. But. But how do you think about your own forecasting ability? It's nice of you to say that. There's like plenty of things I was wrong about too. Like, you know, I try to leave the wrong predictions up obviously, but I think the important point is like, you get some things right, something's wrong. I think we'll be very right about some things. I think we'll be very right that intelligence continues. I think we'll be very right about the rate of scientific discovery. I think we'll be very right about how people kind of are going to have the same things that they care about and drives in their lives 10 years from now they have from today. And even with this like amazing intelligence, a lot of parts of life are going to stay the same. But then a lot of the details and kind of what order science goes in or whether it's, you know, haircuts or hugging face or Navier Stokes first, I'm sure we'll be wrong about it feels like that the leadership skill or basically having the mentality of a venture investor and somebody that's made a bunch of very long term.

There with consistency. Google has a product as well, but yeah, they were. There still hasn't been that like chatgpt moment for adoption of world models. Really. But yeah, and you can imagine this is like a, like a future facing bet, as in, hey, let's make it a much bigger play into. Into robotics. Yeah, yeah. I mean Jensen. Yeah, yeah. I mean Jensen's been doing some more stuff with world models here he is open source. We have Sam Altman joining for the third time. Welcome to the show. Man of the hour. Good to see you. Great to see you. Congratulations. We're going to have you throw that headset on. Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. How is Dev Day 2026 going? People seem very happy. I think they are. What were you doing 20 years ago? John knows if you. No, I was like working on a little startup. Didn't loop launch 20 years ago, basically today. That's incredible if that's accurate. Yeah. I think September of 2006 was the launch and I, I was thinking about it because as we enter the moment of personal agents, there's obviously work applications, but a lot of the demos that I've seen people talk about are things that feel aligned to the original looped vision. It's like, if my friends are in town, let's plan a barbecue, let's order the food, let's go to the restaurant, let's get the reservation. But I'm wondering, is this a full circle moment for you? It's interesting. It didn't feel like that until right when you said it. Now I guess it sort of is. Yeah. And I'm wondering how you have been using dots, how you think this will actually instantiate itself into people's lives. It's so easy to lean into the work side, but this feels like a reinvigorating moment for OpenAI as a consumer company. Look, sadly, all I do these days is work. So I've mostly been using it and I hang out with my family. That's really the only two. But I have mostly been using it for work and it is amazing for that. And I feel like it has gotten me back like my attention and time and ability to like explore and do new things and I love it for that. Yeah, I have not yet figured out how to like go use this to have more fun in my personal life, but I'm inspired to go do that. But you're. Yeah. You're optimistic that people will ultimately do that. I feel like, you know, OpenAI has been called like the accidental consumer company. And at the Same time, the vision seems to be like, actually get AI in the hands of people and maybe let's not end up in a future where that means everyone working 24. 7. Right. 100%. I think the world's always confused when we talk about AI, about whether we want. We're worried people are going to have to work too much or too little. But I think it's great to give people more time to hang out with their kids, do their hobbies, work on creative new projects. I think most people actually want that and I really feel it with dots. I think people are going to get that. Yeah. What has the last. I mean, the last time we talked was a couple months ago or maybe more than six months ago on the show. It's been a wild time. Like a lot of things have gone right. It seems the. There's some numbers that leaked today, but it seems like some things change. How do you tell the story of the last six months or so? I mean, I think the answer is it's all just one jagged exponential that's going and probably the next six months will be even crazier. Yeah, the. The technology has been capable for a while. It's clearly gotten much more capable. But it takes a while for technology like this to diffuse through society. And I think in the last six months, people are using it much more. And now with these sort of always on agents, I think people will again go through a period where they're like, wow, I can really use this in all kinds of ways. And this is like a significant new thing in my life that's helping me. Yeah. So is this a moment to sort of like pay down the capability overhang right now? You know, when you were talking about how, you know, you can use this to like, do the stuff that we were talking thinking about 20 years ago and like, book a restaurant and, you know, coordinate with my friends. I was kind of like laughing in my head because I was like, yes, you can do that, but it can also, like solve the greatest on that problem. And so the delta in capability between, you know, some of the stuff we're talking about now and what these models are so smart. Yeah. Can do is just going to take us a while to figure all that out. Yeah. What have you learned this year about the sequence of events? I was shocked by. If you had told me that there was going to be hugging face and then Navier Stokes. And then after that I saw the first person said I used ChatGPT to book me a haircut, I would have not predicted that Those things happen in that order. Like, I maybe would have predicted that they all happen in the future. Yeah, but I would have predicted we get the haircut first. And I'm wondering if you've learned anything about not just predicting the future, but the sequence of events. I mean, one of the obvious things is just people want their lives to be a little easier. And actually, I think more people are interested in just their lives being a little bit less hectic, a little easier than they are in whatever Navier Stokes can do for them, or at least their direct experience. Totally. But I think the cool thing about this is that models that are this capable are going to be applied to make people's lives better in big and small ways in ways that we can't even really imagine today. And, you know, I think the fact that we all talk about haircuts and booking haircuts is like a. It's a failure of imagination. But the way it gets corrected is all these people here. Sure. Like, as I've had a little bit of time today to talk to what people are building here, like, I am amazed at the creative spirit of what people are building for each other with this technology. And I think it's been. I think it's been. One of the greatest surprises of the last six months is seeing just how far people are pushing the developer tools to build this amazing new stuff. Yeah, talk about some of the new functionality, being able to log in with ChatGPT and basically bring Compute with you anywhere across the Internet. Because to me there was a bunch of great moments earlier, but to me, the moment that stood out is imagining as an independent developer that has been held back by their ability to scale cool products. Because, hey, I can't just start losing $20,000 a day serving free users. I think it's so important to build an open ecosystem here and we want people to take. Well, to bring whatever they want into ChatGPT, run other apps there, but also to take their subscription and go use it elsewhere. And any harness you want, any service you want, like this is. I have been disappointed to see other companies with AI subscriptions go in the other direction. Like, this is a thing you buy and you should be able to take it with you anywhere and you should be able to go use all of the wonderful things these people are building. And I think we're going to push that much further. How do you think about the potential transition from OpenAI's products being very poll focused as, I mean, like the app is there unless I come to it with a Question with a prompt. It doesn't do anything to a world where my dot might message me and then you get into how much is it messaging me, how much is it pulling me in, what are the retention? There's a lot of potential, potential risks with that, right? Yeah. I mean, there's clearly ways that people could misuse or growth hack the fact that AIs can ping you a lot. I'm sure we'll see some companies get that wrong. We're going to try very hard to not do that. But my own experience over the last few weeks is I actually want more. I think we've tuned the dial a little too conservatively for now. And the fact that everything my dot sends me is something I want means I think there's something still left on the table. But I can easily see how this goes wrong on the other direction. And we'll have to figure out how we're going to navigate that. Yeah, I'll often open ChatGPT and realize there's like a very important email that I need to respond to. And like, I didn't. It somehow like got mixed up in and then you're like, you kind of wish it pinged you. Right. What can you say? Any, any advice for, let's say, public company CEOs that want to maintain a startup's culture at scale? Because that's something like, you know, OpenAI is still a private company, but the impression of seeing how this company works is that it's not just like, yeah, we act like a startup at scale. Like, it's actually like that. It's like incredibly scrappy. It's very small groups of people trying to do the impossible on impossible timelines. And something that something that you're doing is working because it allows this, like, incredible velocity. It's not just the models. Someone said to me a few days ago that joined OpenAI somewhat recently and had been at a big kind of slowish public company before, was that the key is to have the work and expectations per person go up over time. And the way that big companies go wrong is there's too many people with not enough to do and they kind of like fight each other over like these fake levels of work. And if everybody is really busy with real impact and there's the amount of work per person and stuff to do per person keeps increasing, then you can fight the slow drag and politics of a big company. On the flip side of that, I feel like there's a lot of companies that are going through sort of a sloppification and they're fighting slop grenades. I've wondered if the correct KPI is maybe we should all be producing the same amount of words in our emails and it's okay if AI is involved, but you don't just want to take every text message and turn it into a 20 page document. Right? We fight super hard against the slop grenade. Yeah. And the many slop grenades. And I think just like very strong cultural norms that if you are writing something and then you are having ChatGPT expand it and then somebody else is going to have a ChatGPT summarize it back to your bullet points. The right answer is to just send the bullet points. Send the bullet points. Yeah. I've told some people just send me the prompt and I can expand it myself in my mind sometimes. How are you thinking about Compute these days? There's so many different, you know, battles and different markets across consumer and enterprise. What is the plan for the next couple of years to build a lot more compute? One thing that OpenAI has that doesn't get as much attention is our chip program which will start to come online in the first half of 2027 and will scale a lot in future years. I think gives us a huge inference advantage for whatever like Watts we can find sure. In the world. And given the growth in demand we are seeing across consumer developer enterprise really everywhere. And to say nothing of like people are going to love dots and then they're going to say well can I have 10 dots or 20 dots or 100 dots or whatever. We will have to make more efficient models, more efficient chips and figure out how to build a lot more infrastructure. How do you see the user experience across the different models, the different cost and speed parameters being vended to the actual end user? Is that something you want to maintain forever? Because developers love hearing about 6.1 Sol and ultra fast mode or are there consumers? You know I noticed dots doesn't have a model picker. I think people are really tired of the model picker and the like model. You know what it like this model, that model. Like we want to find a way to really simplify that. Like the dream is that there is a single model and it kind of makes great decisions for you and you can maybe turn a speed dial when you really need it and cost dial when you don't. But we were talking about models that can book Haircuts vs Solve Navier Stokes. I think this model should be able to figure out a lot of the trade offs and we should be able to do A good job with routing. I think we'll always offer choice to developers. Sometimes you want to drive a Ferrari to the grocery store, sometimes you do. So I think we'll always offer that choice. But most of the time you don't. Most of the time it's the minivan to the grocery store and the Ferrari, the track and the model should be able to make that smoother. Yeah. Do you feel like you have more or less clarity around the future than you did a decade ago? Because when again, I always, always encourage people to look back at your blog in the sort of 2015, 2016 era because there was a bunch of things that you and other people that were writing at the time just like pretty much nailed entirely. And I go through life now knowing that there's people out there that have like very accurate predictions around the future. And sometimes there's an incentive to share, sometimes there isn't. But how do you think about your own forecasting ability? It's nice of you to say that. There's plenty of things I was wrong about too. I try to leave the wrong predictions up, obviously, but I think the important point is you get some things right, some things wrong. I think we'll be very right about some things. I think we'll be very right that intelligence continues. I think we're very right about the rate of scientific discovery. I think we'll be very right about how people kind of are going to have the same things that they care about and drives in their lives 10 years from now they have from today. And even with this like amazing intelligence, a lot of parts of life are going to stay the same. But then a lot of the details and kind of what order science goes in or whether it's, you know, haircuts or hugging face or Navier Stokes first, I'm sure will be wrong about it feels like that the leadership skill or basically having the mentality of a venture investor and somebody that's made a bunch of very long term bets makes people very well suited for today in the sense that having that openness to If I get three things out of 10 right and I get them really right, then that's great. It sort of pays for all the other bets. One of the things that I think is coolest about this new generation of people building with AI is you can try something so quickly and so cheaply that if you have, if you are a developer and you have 30 ideas, the canonical advice that was correct two years ago is pick one and put all of your effort into it because you can't build 30 things. You can now build all 30 things and you can get people to use them all and then you can work more on the ones that work. So I think this mindset of lots of ideas, quick feedback and be open to a lot of things not working is great for this new era of how people build. I have one more question that we want to get you to hit the gong on alignment. You've been deep in the weeds. I'm sure there was a debate I saw. Is it an engineering problem? Is it a science problem? Is there a different frame of mind that we should be approaching alignment with? I think it's like all of those things. But it's certainly incorrect to talk about this only as an engineering problem. Anyone who says we have solved the science of alignment, I believe is wrong in a very dangerous way. Like we need to make more research progress. I assume we will. We've been great at making this research progress. And of course there's a lot of engineering work to do too. You know, we need to continue to figure out how to build better sandboxes and better monitoring tools. But eventually, as we, if we are going to create models that are like, much, much smarter than all of us, we have to actually solve the science of alignment. Have we considered moving away from the term sandbox? Because I have a 5 year old. If I put him in a sandbox, he's not going to stay there. I think we might need a new term. I could unfortunately just stay in the sandbox. Oh, okay. Okay. So may. Yeah, but. But, you know, different alignment. But yes. No, I think the models are. I think. Hold this up. Okay. How do I do this? Just however you want. Just with. I just like bigger. There you go. With authority. Thanks for having me to sign this. As big as possible. Big signature right there on the gong. Thank you. This is going in the Museum of Business at the TVPN ultradome. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Great to see you. Thank you. Congratulations on a great dev day. We will move on to our next guests. We have a few more hopping on the show. We have Alexander and Baricos jumping on in just a minute. We will legend with him on all things codex. We need a slop grenade button being able to. All right. That's bad in the chat. That's great. We could sort of simulate that if we have a remote, you know, remote guest on. We could say, hey, check it. Check.