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Your company to the next level. We have David Senra live in the TVPN UltraDome. We have a video that we're gonna play. Go. Bring it on. Come on in. Let's play the video of his newest addition to the collection. To the history to the world of business and podcasting. Welcome to the show. What are we. See you 24 hours post launch, sir. Yeah. What are we watching here? Oh, it's. It's a drill. What is this? Do you have explain this video? It's. Yes, yes, I played it. Okay, that's the video. But do you have the text that Rob put above it? What did he say? The right way is the hard way. Jerry Seinfeld intro for yes, they bought a Rolodex. This is for your new show. Break it down for us. This is why I was excited to partner with Rob Moore and Andrew Huberman on this, because I've been friends with him for, like, three years. Yeah. And I know he said, I gesticulate wildly, so don't break your new microphone. So. So I knew how serious they take their work. The first time I ever met Rob was in. They invited me to Malibu to check out their new studio. We talked podcasting for nine straight hours. That's not an exaggeration. We stayed at the same restaurant. We sat there for lunch, and then we started talking podcasting. And like four hours later, the waitress, like, we're serving dinner now. Do you want to stay? And we're like, yes, we had lunch and dinner. So I didn't even know they were doing this. They know that I was kind of anti intro for a podcast. I just, like, want. Want to get right to it. Yeah. Like, we're going to make a bumper for you. I was like, I don't even know what a bumper is. So that's what they call this. And it's like. I was like, it's got to be short, though. Wait, that's the. Oh, that's the. That's from the video. Exactly. Intro video. Oh, it all makes sense now. I remember seeing that, and I thought, oh, it's just CGI or something. No, it's not cgi. That's handmade. Exactly. They bought a drill, they bought a Rolodex. Then they printed out all a bunch of companies and the founder names. That's amazing, people. I've covered on founders, of course. And then they did all the, like, the editing. They. And so the whole thing is like, the idea behind it was, okay, you turn on Netflix, you hear that sound, right? Or hbo, you Hear that sound? I'm cool with that. I don't want a super long intro. Like, I want a very wealthy audience and we got to get to the goddamn point. So. Yeah, I just love that it's like an indication of like, how serious we're taking the new show. No AI. The first. We made it with a drill. I'm a human AI. Yeah. The first episode dropped Saturday, Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. They're coming out every other Sunday. Every other Sunday. How's the response been? I'm like wired. I couldn't sleep last night. Excited. You couldn't sleep Saturday night too? I saw David. David. I called David yesterday. Even though you haven't realized. Yes. Get a pod 5. Five year warranty. 39. I actually enjoyed your 8 sleep ad integrated into the Daniel EK episode. If you want to go hear sleep. I guess I was in solidarity with you last night, David, because I put up a 55 I didn't see. I'm staying at a friend's house in Malibu right now and I don't even have my eat sleep. Well, you gotta. We gotta correct that. But ye. Yeah, it was so funny yesterday. I called David. We were just catching up and we realized we were like 30 seconds on the same row on the same. We're like 500ft from each other. So we were like, let's just pull over and hang out. So I got to get the immediate reaction. But no, it really is. There's. To me, one of the most satisfying things is watching ultra talented people do a new thing and just demonstrate the level that they're on. And you and Rob and Andrew have done that. No, I appreciate that. Congratulations on the note of, like, you got busy people. You gotta get right into it. Talk to me about the decision for how you think about the first question. I was listening to Dwarkesh over the weekend. He kicks it off with like a pretty quick intro, but he does introduce the guest. My guest is Richard Sutton. He's the one who. He's very. Darkesh's insanely talented. Insanely talented, especially for a young kid. And you know who else is a talented podcaster? Chris Williamson. Oh, he texted me today. And Chris kicks off with no introduction. He had a thousand episodes. A thousand episodes came out today with Matthew. That's amazing. Incredible. What a run. But they. But they do introductions very differently. They do. Chris kicks off with one short, punchy, like, ungoogle able question. Basically, like, there's no right answer to the question. He'll just say, you know, what is the value of hard Work or what is your life's goal? And then the person just tees off and it gets you right in the episode, Dwarkesh gives you a little bit more of an intro, and they go back and forth, and then he hits them with a question. How do you think about opening an episode? Do you like the way you're doing it? Do you think it'll evolve? We obviously open with one of the most over the top openings. You're watching tv and it's like this crazy thing that just evolved. How do you think about it? All right. I think the important thing is I'm not interviewing anybody. And so the tagline is like, conversations with the greatest living founders. I have zero energy to interview anybody. I have unlimited energy to have long form, deep conversations. You guys have been on the receiving ends of this. Like, when we have dinner, it's not like, oh, we're gonna talk for 30 minutes. No, we talk for, like four goddamn hours. And so that's why I think a lot of some people came out and they're like, you're talking too much. In the Daniel Eck episode, it's like. Cause it's a conversation. I like that. Well, it's important, I think, that your opportunity is to not be. It's tough if you're a podcast and people only watch for the guests. Yeah, that's not a good position to be in. Right. People watch Joe Rogan. There's a cohort of people that watch Joe Rogan just when they're. Just when Donald Trump's on. But a huge amount of people are watching it because Joe Rogan, they're like, who's he talking to? Exactly. That's what we're doing. So, like, I think somebody. I saw, they did analysis on, like, 2,000 of Joe's episodes, and he spoke like, you know, 45 or something percent of the time. Yep. He's just like, the whole genesis of this. And I think I talked about it on the Daniel Ek episode. It's because, you know Patrick o', Shaughnessy, who, again, I think is the best business interviewer in the world. Like, if I'm gonna start an interview show and compete with him, that's just stupid. Like, the main message of Founders, the Founders podcast, is, like, the importance of differentiation. So, like, there's been a million let's interview business people shows. I'm gonna lose that game. I only want to play a game that I can be the best in the world at. And so what, Patrick? We've been really close friends. We're brothers. We talk every day. We've have a ton. He's in these dinners with me, he's in these conversations and it happens over and over again. And he's, he's mentioned to me for a few years. He said it before I was on Colossus. He's just like, man, I really think, have you ever thought about doing a show where you talk to other people, not just you sitting in a room fucking reading books and doing the crazy shit that you do. He's like, I've been around this. Like, no one can have these conversations. And so what really pushed me and I said on the Danielle episode was me, him and Daniel had this super intense four hour dinner. I don't meet with anybody. The first time I met Michael Dell, I flew to Austin. Five hours. We talked for five hours. You think I sat, you think I sat silent? I can't sit silent for anything and they don't want me to sit silent. The whole point is like, you're like this weird human AI with all this knowledge and they want to prompt and get me going. So we get in the car because we're leaving New York and going back to Greenwich. I'm staying at Patrick's house at night, and the first thing he says to me when we get in with his driver, he's like, you have to start recording these. He's just like, I. He goes, I've known Daniel for four years. You got more out of him in four hours than I did in four years. He goes, I talk 2% of the time. He talk 49% of time. You talk 49% of time. He's just like, no one can speak to the soul of the founder. Like, you have to start recording these. Yeah, it's fascinating. There's that story. That's the whole fucking idea. There's no interview. It's just like, I'm going to talk to the greatest living founders and we're going to have insane conversations that are not predictable. Yeah, there's that story about Mark Zuckerberg that he has, like, extremely high question to talk ratio. Like he lets other people talk a lot. And that was seen as like, you know, bullish on his ability to like, hoover up information. At the same time, in the content world, I feel like there is a natural urge. Like, I noticed somebody sent me a short that we didn't post that someone else posted of me and Jordi talking to Mark Andreessen. And it was clear that it was like Mark had a funny take. And so that was what would get the Views. And so we were there kind of as like accoutrement to the main event. And there's like window dressing. Like window dressing. And so there's just like, there is a natural pull in the algorithm for. If you're starting an interview show, I should just get someone, really. No, I know. That's the point. But I'm saying, I'm saying. Did you not just go? No, no, no, no. What I'm saying is that, is that if you're just purely viewmaxing, it's like, go get a viral clip machine, point a camera on them and say, go. And then just film and then. And then say, what's next? What's on your. What's on your mind? And. And. And those two things, you have to actively resist the view capture, the algorithm capture. And that's what you're doing. Before, I didn't even know. You know, I don't view Max. I didn't legitimately. Before we did the giant ramp deal for founders. Right. I did not know how many people listen to founders. You didn't like the analytics? It's great. What does that tell you? I don't give a shit. I want the best audience. Yeah. It's the best, not the biggest. Yeah. The reason the ramp deal came about. Yeah. Because. Because somebody we cannot name. Who. If you're elite in tech, you know who this person is. Whatever the opposite of a public figure is, this person is. It's interesting that the probably the smartest and best one, maybe the smartest and best person in tech behind the scenes, like, no one knows, like, potentially invisible, literally came because, just like I was at Michael Dell's house, he wouldn't stop talking about your podcast. He didn't know we were friends. I know 10 to 15 billionaires personally that listen to your show. We have to find a way to work together. That's the genesis of all this. It wasn't how many downloads you get, it's you have the attention and the trust of the elite. Most elite people in the world. Look at the guest list on the new David Sen show. Yeah. Just like David Senner by David Senner. Yeah. That's hilarious. When you pull it up on Spotify in your car, it says, Daniel Ek. David Senra. David Senra. David Senra. It said it three times. Are you ready? Are you ready? Somebody in the chat says, hey, David, I saw you at Malibu Country Mart yesterday. You're quite tall and handsome. Let's hear it. Are you ready to be? Are you ready to be? Are you ready to Be a household. This is a live chat. You know, Joe, this happened twice. So first of all, I land because I came out here just for you guys. Just so, you know, like, legitimately. I was like, I don't want to. You guys are really important to me. I want to, like, do this in person. We got to talk about how much has changed the ultra down here. But, yeah, this is. It's kind of. I don't like to think about this because I walk in some. I don't know which case this is. One happened at the Tesla supercharger and another at. I walk into Sun Life and get a smoothie, and like, I walk in, there's only three people in there and two guys turning like David Senra and their eye. I'm like, what the. And then another guy was charging and. You used to only get recognized that Amon Properties. Now. Now it's about to be everywhere. I have. I can't tell you everywhere. Oh, the new show is going to be the first one that's associated with Iman. That's very excited. Yeah. I shouldn't say anything yet, but, like. We'Re 99 sure that this, your personal brand's already associated with. How much variation do you think there'll be an episode length? A ton. A ton. Because, like, again, I'm not. There's no formulaic. There's no formula here. So, like, the way I think about it, it's like Founders is just the books that give me energy that I'm excited to learn about and in many cases aren't even books. Like, I think the. The. The Colossus profiles that Patrick and his team are making are so remarkable. I didn't know who Thomas Perfecty Pefferty is. I read that the article just came out. Do you guys know about this guy? He's worth $80 billion. He's 83 years old. I think he owns 80%. This the AI will not make you rich article? No, no, no. This. This is a guy. I think he started interactive brokers. Oh, yeah. 80% of it. That's legit. Okay. Yeah, he's the original size chat. Yeah, he's. He's a Hungarian immigrant. But you read this profile. I'm like, I couldn't put it down. I called Patrick. It was midnight. I literally got him on the phone. I was like, these things are incredible. And I was like, okay. I'm so excited to. That I read this. Even though it's not a book, I have to make an episode. So that's the episode I'm Working on right now. Right. So that's how we would think about Founders. Yeah. David Senra. By David Senra. By David Senra. Hosted. Hosted. Yeah. Why did you pick David Senra to host the David Senra Show? You could have. You could have picked anyone. You're leaving a lot of room to slot other hosts in. Easy, Easy. The funniest response was by Christian Keel. Yeah. I think he used to be at Astronauts. Yeah. He's like, where'd you come up with the name? Yeah, it's great. Great. So, but, but with, with, with the Founders podcast, I feel like you have your thinking on episode length. How you divide up the episodes has changed and you have a philosophy around it and you've kind of narrowed the aperture a little bit as you've become more laser focused on what it takes to deliver a quality episode. Do you think that will happen over time? No. No. Because this is the thing. Okay. I am a control freak. Yeah. Right. As you both know. So, like, Founders is a one person thing. Sure. Like I. To the point where I'm now hand editing the transcripts. Yeah. Everybody's like, outsource it. This is why I wanted to play this thing. Because Jerry Seinfeld way, the hard way is the right way. Right. It's like I'm complete. I have complete control. It's like permissionless. I feel like I'm like, you know, creating a statue or like some kind of art. It's like a very intense love affair that I have. An irrational love affair I have with that show. This one. I'm. Now I have a partner. Like, I didn't even mean. I have an entire team now. We don't have a team of Founders. What I mean is, like, there's some. I don't have control over what that person's going to say, whether they're going to be interesting or not. And so what we've noticed is, is every single person that we've recorded with and they're. We have a crazy guest list. They all came from the audience, the Founders audience. Because that way at least they have like, they know what. What I'm into. Who, like, what I like to talk about. They're more prone to say yes for an unreleased show. But there's wide variance between like, some. In many cases, in some cases, like, they're. We've recorded some with incredible people and they. Halfway through, I'm like, oh, they want me to do a Founders episode for them. Yeah, they just want. Literally, they like, just. I'll ask them a question like, hey, what about this? And then they'll like, look at me and like, want me to talk. I mean, that has to be the same case for Joe Rogan. It's like if you're getting invited to the mothership, you're like, yeah, I want to hear, I want to hang out with Joe Rogan today. Yeah. So no, I have to. What I'm learning and you know, this is new to me is just like, loosen up a little bit. Like, obviously the quality still has to be good. Like, we have to edit ruthlessly. We're not going to. There's a bunch of different ideas. Most of them came from Daniel Ek that I can talk about. Like one example he gave me. And again, like, the guy is the most powerful person in podcasting. He's willing to just fucking counsel you. You should take his advice. So he's like, listen, you need to build up the original feed, right? And then maybe a year in whatever the timeframe is, he's like, you need to have a bunch of separate feeds. So he's like, have the two hour conversation that we had and then edit it. Have another feed where you edit those conversations down to like 30 minutes. And then he's like, then you need a third feed where it's just, hey, Daniel had 10 fucking clips that were incredible. Just that. Isn't that something that he should be solving on the product side? Like, when I, when I went to your show, I saw that I could do in Spotify, I could do, I watched it on Spotify out of respect to Danielle, but I noticed that I. Could switch as the artist intended, as. The artist, as the host and the guest intended. And I also left a comment and fun in the comment section. But you could watch video, switch to audio. But then there were also short form video clips that were all linked to the same profile. I didn't have to go find David center shorts. Yes. Why will there be different feeds when that's something that they could solve on their side? That's a really interesting. I don't know, I'd ask them, I'm not sure. But, but this was, we were in Stockholm together. This, he told me this in January, so a few months. Because the original idea, I, I, I, I guess I should back up too. The original idea was to launch in April because again, like, you guys have a deep relationship with Ramp, just like I do. And, you know, I had this idea, give credit to Eric and Kareem for the level of trust they put in me where I was like, I want to do this. Where I Have long form conversations with. Starting with the people that are in my audience. And like, I think it'll be good, but like, I think I would love if you guys would be presenting sponsor, like done like immediately. Right. And the original idea was to launch in April. April of next year? No, this past April. But me and Daniel couldn't sync schedules and I'm like, I'm not launching until. Yeah, he's got to be number one. Yeah. Because of the podfather. No. Yeah. It's just like the respect I have for him. Like, I just knew like out of every. I'm friends with a bunch of people I've recorded, but not to the level of like, I've spent hours and hours talking to him. I just knew he's just so wise and he's not. I just knew I could get stuff out of them that, you know, I hadn't seen him talk about anywhere else. And so we recorded that like a few months ago, but it was like the beginning of the summer. And then I talked to the head of business at Spotify and the head of product and they're both like, you don't launch a show in the summer. And so that's why I got put, pushed back to end of September. Yeah. Because everybody's like, they're just distracted. It's just like you want maximum impact. Yeah. And so we waited for a while. Yeah. I mean, the launch. Do you expect to record and scrap episodes entirely? Do you think that'll be frequent or do you think that if you bring the right energy, you can always get. The unfair advantage we have is that like I do a monologue podcast and maybe better than anybody else in the world. And so like if they're going to sit there and just talk, I can go forever. Like forever. No, I don't think I'll scrap it. I just think you have to be, again, you have to respect the, the, the, the time of the audience. And so, but this is different. So you mentioned the founders, the formula for founders. Like, I don't like doing them longer than an hour. So that way you're listening on 1.5. So it's like a 40 year career. 40 hours of reading. Right. That you can listen to in 45 minutes. That's the value prop with founders and that will give you a very high end audience if you just idea after idea after idea. This other one, if I can have an interesting four hour conversation, they're going to be four hours long. I don't think I can. I think we could talk for Four hours. And you should edit it down to probably like two. Gonna do Gaston Glock's daughter. We should do the first. No, she's on X. No. Yeah, she took over the company. I believe it's his daughter or maybe granddaughter. But did you listen to that? We could do. The three of us could do a 24 hour podcast on podcast. Podcast. We could do that. It'd be boring as hell for the audience. But you guys have invited me before. You like you want to be here for the whole show? And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea. I can't live stream for three hours. I will get in trouble. It's easy. Watch. No woman in San Francisco charging 3, $30,000 to name your baby. What do you think you're using that? Were you using that? No. You shouldn't have a kid if you need somebody else to name it. Good take. See, it's easier than you think. No, but I will get in trouble. I will literally get canceled because I don't have a filter. I can't do live, remember? I can edit the shit out of all. I think the only thing you do is swear. You're very. You're very tame. Other than that, you just always divert. You're just always any. You naturally divert to history and talking about. So that's, that's the key where it's like, if you go back to differentiation, right? This is. Somebody said the funniest thing where there's like a Red Bull futurist. Yeah, okay. He's like, somebody ripped, literally said, we're going to be the TPBN of Europe. And he, quote, treated them and no disrespect to them, I don't know them. But he's like, of course. Like the TV Europe works two days. Two days a week. To their credit. They leaned into it and they. Yeah, they leaned into which I really appreciate it. No, but that's the point. But it's just like, God bless your soul. It's just like, then you're. You want to avoid direct comparison. And I can tell you right now, they haven't asked me for podcast advice. Yeah, but there's. I can't think of other people in the podcast industry that I'd want to avoid direct comparison than you two. It's like you're going to lose that because everybody's going to be like, let's compare this to tpn. What is this thing? What is this? The ultra drum? Go to the wide, go to the wide. Go to the main Go to the main wide, Big wide. We're here in the Dom. I don't know where the. What camera I should be looking into. There's like fucking 10 of them in here. You don't understand how serious. Because someone just copied our last set, and we completely changed the set. You don't understand how serious these two guys take it. It's just stupid. And there's a great line in Zero to one, right, where Peter Teal says, if you're copying Mark Zuckerberg, you're not learning from him. Yeah, you copy. You don't copy the what? You copy the how. Yeah, it drives me insane. So my point is, like, I'm not going to start another interview show. I'm going to say, hey, I'm going to have conversations. And the conversation show. No, no, not even that. But there's other conversation shows, like Joe Rogan, what you just said. I can't help myself. Everything I hear, read anything, it all ties back to the shit that I learned from founders. Yeah. So it's like, oh, like the first time I met Michael Dell, when I flew the first time, you know, we were talking, we went through Zach Dell's base power. We're going over, and they were showing, like, me, these date, these dashboards, everything else within, like, the first five minutes. I'd made references to, like, Jim Casey, Fred Smith, Brad Jacobs. This is like, this just comes naturally. Yeah. So it's like, the important thing about podcasting or I think any kind of business has to be, like, natural to you. So in our private conversations, we pull ideas from Ogilvy all the time or anybody. So, yeah, that's exactly what I want to do. And so people are like, I liked it, but you should do this. I don't know what to tell you, because it's like, this is just who I am. I can't. I'm not acting like I can only be who I am. Yeah. I think the thing that's so. I think. I think the conversations that. Giving people the experience of you being at dinner with Daniel or Ovitz, these people, like, I feel, like, incredibly blessed that I get to go to dinner with you and hang out with our friends and get the David Senner experience of, like, having a normal conversation, but then always, you're always pulling it back and, like, contextualizing it with history, it's, like, incredibly addicting. I could just. I could do, you know, go to dinner for six hours because it's still going to just be wildly interesting. But now creating that product I saw Somebody. Somebody in the chat was looking earlier. They were looking at the first few guests and they were like, I might need to come back to this podcast later after I've made a few billion. But it's actually the exact opposite of that. It's like, no, just giving this product is something that's completely free. Anybody can just go listen to it, and you get to be. Get the experience of being at dinner with you and somebody that's created a $150 billion company, a $10 billion company. So there's two things on that. So I did this, like, my very first viral episode of Founders, because I don't, obviously don't try to go viral is when I did the I Had Dinner with Charlie Munger episode. I remember that. Yeah. And like, it went so viral. Founders to the top of the charts overall for all podcasts. The funniest thing about that was that didn't you get some inbound from journalists who were like, he didn't want people to write about it. And you got scoops, like, because. No. That was basically reporting on it. Or. No. So it was like, new information. Berkshire's. So again, the reason why people love Munger and people, people I admire is like, they're chaotic, uncontrollable people. I am one of those people. It's like, Rob is not going to. Rob Moore is not going to be like, I'm going to try to box this guy. Just like, there's fucking no way. So Berkshire was. They're very, like, they understand the power of story. They control everything. And Charlie was uncontrollable. And so it was not like I, I, they knew I was a podcaster. They knew, like, I was going to make a podcast about it. I wasn't going to record anything. Yeah. And so Berkshire's PR was super mad because they kept. Not because of the episode. They actually. The episode was very positive. Yeah, it was amazing. But what they were upset about is then you had all these journalists hitting them up. They're like, I thought, what did you mean by this? I thought Charlie didn't give interviews. I'm a. This one. And, yeah. So he's like, he's not. I. He doesn't give interviews. I'm like, I'm not a journalist. Yeah. I'm an enthusiast. This guy's my idol. I have a bust. I have a bronze bust of Charlie Munger. My. I'm not a journalist. I'm an enthusiast. That's because that's enthusiast. That's true. That's true. It's True. And so then I. Feedback. I was like, listen, if Charlie. If Charlie says delete the episode, I will delete the episode. But some fucking lady of birth. No, that's not gonna happen. Like, I'm very proud of that. Have him call me. Have him call me. Here's my number. And we found out Charlie didn't give a shit. Because he doesn't. He didn't give a Fuck. He's almost 100 years old. So to answer your question, or to piggyback on your comment, so I was doing all these, like, I had dinner with episodes where I'd have dinner and then I'd summarize in an episode, but you didn't hear anybody else. And so the original idea I had for David center by David center, hosted by David Senra, is record. Jay Z is one of the most fascinating people to me. Episode 238 of Founders is his autobiography. And he doesn't ever do podcasts. And he did a podcast that was a Tidal exclusive when he was trying to build up Tidal. And the podcast was fascinating. It's called Rap Radar. They rented. They were in a private dining room, Beverly Hills. So it's the two hosts and then Jay Z, and they just have lunch. Right? You know, he's not, like, chewing that. So you edit that stuff out. And I'm like, that's. That's exactly what I want. Like, because what you just said. How much would people pay to have dinner with Brad Jacobs or Daniel Ek or Mike Ovitz? I'm going to New York again in, like, two weeks to have dinner with Ovitz again. Ovitz, come. Like, crazy friend. Like, he texts me all the time. He just booked a guest. I can't tell you who. Let me tell you the funny Ovitz experience. I had this this week. He goes, hey, I just had dinner with X. Okay? I'm not. I can't say who. Elon Musk's son. No. And he goes, he's unbelievable. You should get him for the new show. And I was like, do you think you can help convince him? He goes, that's why I'm fucking texting you. Two hours. No, but give him credit. He's like, what's your email? Like, the email to the person that can book this for me? Yeah. Two hours later, date done. Like, he's a. He's a shark machine. That's fantastic. He's crazy. So I do want to say one other thing about being free. I. I just retweeted my own tweet. Here we Go. Because I think. Give yourself a pat on the back. No, because I think this is important, what you just said about the fact that it's like a miracle is all is free. And I was feeling this today because, like, the message I've been getting for the, for the Daniel episode and it's like podcasting is a miracle. You can receive a world class education on any subject you want on demand, while your eyes are busy, for free. And I understand that. I've been doing it for almost 10 years. It's still a fucking miracle to me. I still cannot believe that I can listen to these conversations. I can. It just. I never, I still, I still, I still feel that podcasts were much more important to my education than my traditional education. I thought back of. I was lucky to discover like Tim Ferriss when I was 18. Right. And being able to. Yeah, you just did the show with him. And just like being able to sit in on those conversations and learn about different perspectives on life and different ways to live and how to work and how to be healthy, all these different things were, were incredibly formative. And I just thought I was never growing up. I was never in an environment where I was in any of those rooms at all. Right. I had a. You know, there's some people that are. That benefited from that. And I just feel like it is the greatest public. Public good. You nailed it. Like, okay, if you went to Harvard or Princeton or Ivy League, like, my parents didn't even fucking graduate high school. That was just never gonna be an option. I had to work full time. Like, maybe you get work. You. Like, there are a small percentage of people that get world class education and they're surrounded by the crazy network. Like, think about like, the majority of my friends were all at Harvard. They're all like Jewish. These like Jew, Jewish genius Harvard people, they were all school the same time. And then you fast forward, they've been out of school for like 15 years and they're all completely like absolutely dominating. Like, I couldn't imagine what that experience would have been like to have that when you were 18, like life changing. And they're still. You go to your, you go, you go to your friend's house for the weekend and the dad. Just the conversations at the dinner table. Right. But now those conversations are actually widely accessible to everyone. Exactly. And so, like, I've learned more. I'm looking for this. We. You know, you were one of the first advertisers on founders years ago. And I'm actually looking for this text now. Text that you sent me probably, like, 20, 23. Oh, way back. Yeah. But you were just like, Founders is essentially, like, the only show that I'm listening to these days. Yep. And I want the response, though, because my response was kind of arrogant. Well, no, I tried. I think it was like it should be. I asked if you were open to being acquired, I think. And you were. Yeah. And you wanted. You wanted to buy all. Oh, no. You like the only podcast I listen to religiously. This is. Hold on. This is gonna be funny. Do you think this is an act? So this is back in March 22, 2023 is when this is happening. Okay. So you text me. Only podcasts I listen to religiously. I go, no days off. I'm coming for everyone. Fact check. True narrator. He did come for everyone. How do you explain your approach to work? Because I know you. My experience, you're working around the clock. Like, you're always on, but it doesn't always look like being in front of a, you know, computer, you know, editing an episode or whatever. But what. What and what have you kind of pulled from the greats to kind of inform your own process? So I think, like, man, sometimes. So I just did Tim Ferriss, and sometimes, like, I think I said this on Tim Ferriss. Like, I say stuff, and I'm like, I should not be admitting to this. But then every time I do, people are like, man, I'm so glad you said X, Y, or Z, because, like, I feel that exact same way. What, do you procrastinate sometimes? No, no, no. So my issue was, I think for years, episode 222 of Founders at Thorpe. And if you look at the subtitle of that episode, it's like my personal blueprint. And what I thought was interesting about Ed Thorpe was like, oh, this guy, like, mastered life more than almost anybody I've ever come across out of the 400 episodes I've done. And what I mean by that is, like, he actually was, like, balanced. Like, he. You know, he has a. He lived a crazy, adventurous life. He invented a system for counting cards in blackjack, built the world's first wearable computer with Claude Shannon, created the world's first quantitative hedge fund. Made more money than he could ever spend, but he took care of his health. He was a good family man. And so that's what I meant. I was like, oh, he's all well balanced. And I was like, this is my blueprint, and the closest thing I have to a mentor. I would say like an explicit mentor and kind of like an Older brother is Sam Hinkey. And I was on the phone with him recently. I mean, recently. It's probably like nine months ago. Because I kind of understood this about myself for a while. And I'm like, man, I think I'm fucking lying. Like, I think I'm lying when I say, like, that's my blueprint. Like, I don't, like, I don't want to be balanced. Like, I don't, like, I, like, I think I'm much more like Enzo Ferrari than I am like Ed Thorpe. And, you know, I think Sam's point, he's just like, he's a way better person than I am. Like, legitimately better human being than I am. And his point is, like, trying to pull me back in that direction. And I just think that's, like, not gonna happen. So the answer your question is, like, if my eyes are open, then I'm thinking about work, and I'm only thinking about work, and it doesn't feel like work because I just have this irrational obsession. Dude, I don't want to talk about this. I literally, like, this sounds so, so terrible. I literally, like, had tears in my eyes when I woke up yesterday because this is so fucking important to me. And I knew was. I knew that yesterday was like a big turning point in my life, but I woke up from a private message from Daniel. And it's like I read it and like, immediately started fucking crying. Like, not like sobbing, but, like, tears in my eyes. Because to have somebody that you respect so much say, you're like, you, you're. I'm really proud of you. Like, what you're putting out is excellent, really great. And to have that and also love it the way I do, it's like the reason I said Enzo Ferrari, because he said a man dominated by passion such as mine, like, can't be cut in half. His whole point was just like, he wasn't good at anything else but thinking about Ferrari. And so my work thing is just like, I'm infinitely curious. And so, like, today, you know, I worked out and then every other thing was just reading. And, like, I'm reading two books at the same time. I'm working on founders episodes. I'm trying to respond to messages about the Daniel episode. Like, I don't know. And then I just come over here and like, we're friends, but this is kind of work too. And after this, like, I'm going to go back and work some more and, like, that's all I want to do. I have a follow up question, but first I'm going to tell you about AD quick dot com. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising. Only ad combines technology, out of home expertise and data to enable efficient, seamless ad buying across the globe. I don't, I don't mind the ad. I love the ads and I love how they're weaved in. But if I'm sitting here, it's got to be a ramp ad. Okay, run it back, run it back. Time is money. Save both. There we go. Corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. Go to ramp.com. my question, do you think that there is a material difference between retired and live player, active CEO, post fu money, post economic in terms of the shape of an interview, what you get out if you took a random listener and they had no idea who Daniel Ek and Brad Jacobs and Michael Dell and all these different folks who you're going to interview were. I'm not interviewing them. What? Yeah, conversing, talking to. Do you think that they would be able to tell, okay, this person's still in the arena. This person is post economic checked out. It's not, it's not a money thing. It's not a retirement. What is it? It's like a personality thing. Wait till you see the brat. I cannot believe some of the stuff we got on film that Brad Jacobs does. There we go. Because that guy just can't help himself. He is who he is. And obviously like he's a public company. I don't know if he's a CEO. He's definitely chairman. But like a lot of these happen to be public company CEOs. So like I have to be, you know, they have, they have comms people and they have all this crazy stuff. And I'm not going to, I'm not intentionally trying to get in trouble with anybody. You know, again, I'm an enthusiast. I'm not a journalist. I just think, hey, you're brilliant. Can I pull something out of you that other people. I benefit a lot from talking to you. And so it's kind of selfish that I get all these lessons and this inspiration, this education from you. Are you cool sitting down and just recording the conversations? We have any. Anyways. Yeah. And so personally, Brad doesn't give a shit. He is 68. He's got the most energy of anybody else have been around. He also has nothing to be insecure about because he started eight separate billion dollar companies and he's a. He wrote the book on Starting billion dollar company. And he's. And I guess not asking for, you know, like, are you bullish on this particular market that you may or may not have bags in? That's not relevant. I don't. We don't talk at all about current affairs. Sure. Current events. Yeah. Which is. This is why we're beautiful yin and yang, because obviously we're focused on what's happening. Another point. That's another huge point of differentiation against like a Rogan is like, you go on Rogan, it's going to be like, well, let's react to the news right now. It's very. No. And my point, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not. We talked about this. John was like, will you do a podcast with me? I was like, what are we going to do? He's like, talk about tech news. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not going to talk about tech news. Would you. Ragov is asking, would you interview David Senra on David by David Senra, hosted by David Senra. Okay. Would you interview yourself? Okay. So the. Hold on. The reclusive genius that we all know and then we can't name his name, literally called me yesterday. Yeah. And had a long conversation about this. And he had a. I'm not gonna. I can't say I'll tell you guys off there, but he had a great idea and he's like, once we. We should do this for episode 100. And I'm like, yeah, well, here's another great idea. Go to getbezel.com your bezel concierge is available to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, Any watch. Get a lucky question I have on my side. Then we should. We should grab lunch. I'm sorry, do you think we're exiting the hobbyist era of podcasting. Era? We had this conversation yesterday. It was. I mean, there was a. There was a beautiful. There was. There was a. There was about a decade and a half where you could start a podcast and have a. You know. Okay. I was doing media part time. I was one of the worst. Yeah, but we had this conversation. No, you convinced me. I had this conversation when it came in because it was just obvious. We'll talk about this later. It's the first fucking video I saw of yours. I was like, this guy, we have to be friends. He's a generational talent. Like, it's just. We had a guy stop John while we were at breakfast this morning, had no idea about tvpn, but was obsessed with John's videos and John's like, I haven't published a video. I haven't published a video in, like, over a year. Yes, I was. I wouldn't think it was that early, but I came in years early. So anyways, me and Jory just randomly talk about this because we can't help ourselves. Yesterday when we randomly ran into each other, this is where I. Like, I don't mean any disrespect to other people. So. We are live. I know I have to be very careful, so. And that's a great place to end it. No, no. Okay. No disrespect. There's no way this guy's watching. No, no, no, no, no. It all gets back. Okay, okay. Right. Okay. I was induced into a state of rage. I was at a dinner and I was introduced to another podcaster, and they mentioned, like, again, they're from, like, the old school, right. When you can, like, come in and, like, it's just different. And basically his point was just like, yeah, there's, like, I have to figure out, like, a new form. There were a lot of people that saw podcasting is just, like, a marketing side hobby. But you can't say, I need, like, I need to fix my show. Yeah. And I need a different, like, I need it, like, a new, like, take on my existing show. And also tell me that I'm going to take three months off to do something else that's not the podcast. Yeah, you're going to get fucked up, like, because what's happening now. This is exactly what I said, though. But this is. What's happening now is people used to come in and they're like, oh, I'm just gonna, like, I can do three other things. Podcasts could be your third, fourth, fifth most important thing in your life. Yeah. It's just 90 minutes once a week. Yeah. But now you have people that act like founders and entrepreneurs coming in. And the conversation we had just like. So I think of, like, obviously I approach this as if an Enzo Ferrari was doing what I was doing, if a Munger was doing what I was doing, if a Steve Jobs was doing, or Edwin Lane was doing what I was doing, what would they do? That's exactly how I think. And then I come into this and I'm like, oh. And I knew you guys think like this anyways, but what I was just telling them because I was like, where did the rest of you? Had, like, 15 people last time I was here. The interns went back to college. Yeah. I'm like, no, they're gonna learn more. I Go. These two or one of our interns didn't go back to college, but I. Go, this is what I said, I go. These two are gonna take this as far as it could possibly go. There's no way, if you have a front row seat to that, skip a fucking year of college. They're gonna take this as far as possible. You guys are not. You're not. You are podcasters, but you're entrepreneurs and you just realize, like, this is the product. Look what it's got. Your fucking one year anniversary is what, four days from now? I think so, yeah. We need to figure out when. 365 probably. But look at what you guys. Well, no, we didn't start. We didn't. Well, we didn't. Yeah, we didn't start. No, you didn't. Doing daily until I cornered you at the FAINA in Miami and started yelling out of love. That's the real. That's the real founding date. Yeah. But my point being is like we were just looking at episode one right before I came on and look what you guys, you're entrepreneurs. You've iterated tremendously in a year. And so, yeah, good luck competing with John and Jordy. You're not going to do that. Yeah. It's also, I mean, the function of, you know, John spending years building up, figuring out how to create great content online, me starting my career basically selling ads on the Internet, just a bunch of different. And then, I don't know, it's a. Would not have been possible if we hadn't each spent a decade doing what we did prior. But then there's also something that is not copyable, which is the chemistry between you two. Which is why I was so like, emphatic about, you need to take this more seriously. Not that you weren't, but like you, you had. There's just. You can't buy that chemistry. What do you mean chemistry? We're mortal enemies. No, you just play the amount of time you spend. Yeah, we're just great actors. We're here in Hollywood. Yeah, there's so many times where I. Remember when I went to casting and they were like, you're gonna play this guy. This is a lie. Don't lie to your audience. So many times he plays the character, a character that's friends with the other host. There's so many audience, they're lying. There's so many times when I'm with one and the other one calls the other one and it's just like they love each other. Like, I can't hang out with anybody as much as you guys hang out and then still like them. So, like, I'm watching. Nobody. I just. Nobody likes talking about 225 is not gonna match itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't. Who else will I get to shoddily spot me while they're on their phone and I'm dying the second rep. I've. I've definitely gotten better. I've gotten better at spotting. But when? When? In the morning when we're working out. It's. It's gonna be there a couple times. John almost lost his head because I was locked in on the news when he was batching. Dude, the joint workouts are working. I saw the pictures of you at the beach. Your back's getting. It's getting big. Way wider. You guys are on the juice. Look at this. No. No juice. I do. I do that here. You know the secret? I eat a hamburger. I eat a double smash burger at. 8Am there's secrets anyway. Secrets. This is a lot of fun. Let me tell you about wander. You want to sing with us? Find your happy place. Find your happy place. Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel great amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, and 247 concierge service. It's a vacation. No, but better. Cody Hayes. I just have to say I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. Congratulations. I feel lucky to have met you before you became a household name and nobody in my career has done more for me.