Unlock seamless real time experiences and new value with Cisco. Where you want to go next, Zach? Okay. Yeah. Togari. Yeah. Is back. Where do we know him from? He says Calais. Been on the show? Yeah. He says everyone's been asking what's next after selling Cal AI, introducing Persona. Others couldn't figure out the interface we did. Let's pull up the video. We got to ask Zach how he. How. How his deal worked to sell Calai. Cause he seemingly had to stay for like a week. Like he ended up. However he worked it out, he basically just got to bail out. You can't keep this guy out of the arena. You can't get him on the sidelines. It's impossible. Yeah. And Kali is the number four fitness app. Still cooking? Yeah. So good. Yeah. Let's play this video. Every major AI company is racing to build the best assistant. But they're all building within the same 2 by 6 inch rectangle we wear in our pockets every day. We believe AI is supposed to free our screens, not make us use them more. So we built a new interface. Introducing Persona and the Persona band. To talk to your Persona, simply flick your wrist or hold down on the face. Then ask anything. Hey, can you ask Mac how many pre orders we got today? Sir, I just emailed Mac. I'll let you know his reply. Your Persona will proactively learn your habits to make your life easier. For example, when you get off a flight, it should know to to get you an Uber from the airport to your hotel. Reactively, it will be able to help with all kinds of things like canceling subscriptions, negotiating bills, or even doordashing your usual Chipotle bowl, knowing exactly what you like. Elite Persona is also the only AI. It's the predictive burrito. It's what the doordash guy was talking about. They ordered the burrito before you even know he's actually building it. Privacy for your and those around you's data. This isn't a continuous listening band. The microphone will only activate under your control. We are launching with three different materials and four different colors. Pre order your band and start texting your Persona. Today I've seen enough time for Zuck to come in with the 5 offer. Yeah, pretty good pitch. Little bit harder to get people to install it. Right. Because they got to buy it, wait for it to ship. Little bit of a barrier to entry. But also, I love these AI devices. I think it's cool. Yeah. Pocket really worked. Yeah. I don't know he's going to really blow this thing up. I have a feeling this is going to be big. That's cool. What did Prompter say? Never bet against a guy who managed to sell a calorie tracking GPT wrapper, which in no way could have possibly been accurate at calculating macros for 100 million. No, he. He is a master of growth. Growth and scale. And just like so, if you look at the charts right now, Calais number four, the company that bought Calai, is number nine. Wow. Yeah, I mean, that's a good example. It's a good growth team. Doesn't he also have another company, ecogpt or something? Or is that not him? No, no, that's his co founder. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Happening. Yeah. So I'm still. Yeah, we Tyler pre order one of these. Oh, yeah. Put it on the ramp. So, yeah, I'm excited to check it out. I'm still not. I'm still overall not convinced that I need a new device. Like, there has to be something. Yeah. Like a lot of the demo was screenshots of the phone. Yeah. And so. And I do spend time away from my phone, but I'm typically in the water. Is it waterproof? Can you wear that while you're surfing? You said you had a brilliant idea while you were surfing. Needed to hold it in your head the old way before you got back to your phone. Like an idiot using your brain. No. It really does feel like a wave of new devices is coming online and the. In the war for the home device. I mean, you can see the battle between Apple and Meta reemerging with Muse. How deep will they be able to go before Apple pushes back? Every other firm is working on hardware. The Meta glasses, the Meta glasses with Muse should act very similarly. You have an agent, you can talk to it. You can do some of the similar actions. The trick is like, people don't wear the glasses all the time. Whereas a wristband, like, whoop, people wear that all the time. And he seems very in tune with, I don't know, just like the obvious pushback, like calling out that it's not listening all the time. There are just people that would just forget about that. And it's like, it's very. Yeah, I'm just using the burrito example. I'm struggling to see when I would need a burrito but wouldn't be near my phone. It's more just like if you don't. If it's faster, people just do anything that's faster. That's how we got to phones. There was a time when it was like, I know but if you're gonna shop online, you go on desktop. I'm not saying the overall form factor is bad, but if you had the ability to just hit a big button and talk to the Persona app and say, order me the usual from Chipotle. It's not like the band is necessarily faster if your phone is sitting right there. Yeah. I wonder how fast they're going to update Siri, because it feels like. No, it is. It is so funny to me that Apple's finally coming out with their Knowledge Retrieval. Knowledge Retrieval LLM chat app. And right. Literally right before they could really get it out to the public, there's like a whole new paradigm of agents that are. You can just tell it's going to take Apple, like two and a half years to get a beta out. Yep. And so again, right as it felt like they were, oh, we're going to catch up. Will it, will it, will it? Is there a way that the next version of Gemini is so good? If you've talked to Gemini in Gmail, it links it. And so when you talk to Gemini through Siri, it knows that it's you and it can go in your email and it can email people and text that restaurant to get the reservation is that I'm always interested in, like, how much innovation will Apple get for free? Because they're partnered with Google. Like, if Google advances the model, does that advance automatically come? Or is Apple, like, We're buying Gemini 3.1 flash from you. Thank you. We'll let you know if we want the new thing. Because if they just want Gemini and all the progress, like, there's going to be progress there, there's going to be new capabilities, the models are going to get better, the functionality is going to get better. I would bet that even though people were sort of. Yeah. Google is just really, really, really struggled to make good AI products. Yeah. I don't know. I would be surprised if they can't figure out a way to order you a burrito in the next six months. Right. Like, that's not some, like, RSI critical thing. It's like, I don't know, you think that. You would think that having spent billions of dollars buying Windsurf, that they could have a competent code gen product. Yeah. I haven't seen. Yeah, it's tricky. I don't know. Like, there's small companies that have made good coding harnesses. Yeah. Anyway, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. We have Jeremy Allaire from Circle. You want to talk about Sam?

Now with man, says Daria, we should pump the brakes on the frontier. Sam. Yeah, let's all slow down together. Meanwhile, Zuck. The funny thing is. Yeah, I mean let's, let's talk about what Zuck wrote. He said, last month I wrote about how we can build a positive and safe future for everyone. This is when Zuck said, I really want people to understand my values before we come out with our most powerful AI ever. And I at least felt like we already had a good understanding of Zuck's values. But he wrote yesterday, every lab has the responsibility and incentive to move at the pace required to train its model safely and the ability to take its own actions to ensure that happens. The reality is people don't want to use agents that are misaligned with them and don't do what they ask. So labs have a strong natural incentive to make their models more aligned right away. Starting out with this point, it's like, this is not the safety debate. Has not been around the idea of, oh, they're going to create personal agents that are going to be misaligned to the users. This is not at all, this is just a point that doesn't matter. No, no. I mean there is a, like, it's not the safety crowd, but the whole like social media is brain rot addiction. Like, like that is something that there is a separate crowd that does critique that and says like I don't want the addictive flywheel of, of maximizing screen time to be brought to a. It's totally separate debate. Yeah, no, I agree, I agree it's not, it's not the true AI safety debate. Yeah, but it is a debate. There is a lot of debate about slowing progress on capability until alignment catches up. My view is that trust and alignment are quickly becoming the most important capabilities that will differentiate. Again, this is not relevant to the current safety debate. Obviously people want to make products that do what their customers want them to do. No one has been worried that you can't make a model that in the near term or in the medium term, or even over long running tasks can generally do what the user wants. The concern is that, that if you leave models and give them a task that is more expansive, that they can start to do things like hacking hugging face. Right. So again, nobody is sitting here saying the main thing is that this is talking past the X risk question. It's completely dismissing this discussion which Dario is laser focused on. And so this feels like it's a rebuttal, but it's actually talking past it in the Sense that he's like, labs face significant liability. It's like, well, in the extra scenario, the liability doesn't matter. That's the whole point, is that like, no one's going to come. And, and here's, here's the best, here's the best line Meta delayed shipping Muse for several months to focus on safety and security. That's actually very rational and important because every company delays their products for months. That's just called building a good product to make it safe and secure. Like, period is what Matter has been doing forever. You have to do that. You have billions of users. You got to make sure they're safe and secure. Every single product. Again, I felt like he was, but there's a lot of things in here that are rational. He's taking a victory lap on not taking a victory lap. Don't you realize that? He says, we didn't call for everyone else to do this before. We would. We just did it as part of our day to day work because it was clearly the right thing to do. And again, every single company already does all of these things. Every single company that makes AI products already done victory laps while they're doing it. He's taking a victory lap for not taking a victory lap. It's not that complicated. Everyone else says, like, we're taking safety seriously. We want to pat on the back before we delay the product. And he's saying, I want the pat on the back after I delay the product. Yeah, I just think it's. I just scary. A lot of back patting going on. I just think it's, I think it's. I just think it's very funny to. I think it's funny how much all these points are fine. They generally are rational and they make sense. But I think it's funny that people are giving him so much credit for this note, given that he's totally missing the main point that everyone else is focused on X risk intentionally missing the point because he doesn't believe it. He has PDF in order to get. In order to get. In order to get brownie points from people that don't even understand the current debate. No, to get brownie points from other people that have a PDM of 0 who are like, yeah, and you can see who's supporting this. They're like, yeah, thank you. Like, just put, put the, put the agents in the bag, you know, make the tokens free and just make the products. Like, I'm not worried about that at all. And for that crowd, they're like, thank goodness you didn't like fall in the hole of like stooping to this P doom debate that I don't take seriously. That's the side. I just wish that he would come out and say I have a P doom of zero. I'm just gonna make. No, he's not. He's not. He's trying to position. He's saying my view. Like that's what he's saying. He's not being explicit about that. He's trying to let people say we care a lot about safety. We slowed down our development because we care about safety. Trust and alignment are important. Right. He should definitely come out and say P doom zero because if it's not zero and it happens and we all go extinct, no one's gonna be able to dunk on him. Right? Yeah. So it's pure upside. Pure upside to be P doom zero guy. Why has no one considered this? The aura gain is so high. Yeah, I would, I would be, I would respect it a lot if he just came out and said what he actually thinks. Which I do Believe you're right. PDM0, which he has a P doom of 0 and his P abundance is high. I mean that's what he said in the previous essay. He was basically like, I don't think the. He even was gesturing towards like the fear based marketing. The doom based marketing is just a marketing tactic. I don't think it's rational and also I don't think it's good for people to be in that head space. And it's like info has. Here's the thing, one of the last lines. Committing the significant majority of compute towards serving people rather than racing towards recursive self improvement is one of the best ways to ensure we develop this technology safely. Meta has made this commitment and other labs can do this as well. Look, like there's absolutely zero shot that Zuck walks into MSL and gathers the researchers and says, look, I don't want to make models that make our models better. I don't want to do it. I want you guys just focus. There's zero, zero chance. So again, this to me is just like he is being disingenuous with his positioning of almost every single point here. I don't know. I do think that there is a trade off right now between making models good at things that are not on the RSI path and those that are. And so like the race to become really, really good at coding is super aligned with rsi. The race to do image generation is not. And image generation does not seem to be on the RSI critical path. Although I think DeepMind put out something where they're using world models and they think they have a breakthrough there. I don't know if I saw that accurately, but maybe they're wrong. But at least like the bet, at least Anthropic has been like, we don't need to be world class at image generation to get where we want to go because we just need to be really good at coding. Coding teaches the model how to train new models and then we get, you know, and then that final model, we can ask it to spin up an image generator if we want. Zuck is saying the opposite. He's saying like, yeah, we will actually go and try and build a tool just to help you book a dinner reservation. And that's a good use of compute. Probably not on the RSI path. And that's like a reasonable trade off. That feels, that feels real to me. I don't know. What do you think about engaging independent evaluators? Is this like, yeah, again, he says it's already industry best practice. Is he talking about benchmark stuff or is he talking about like actually like the. You have slack access, you have a desk, you have a badge. Like, you don't work here, but you're allowed to just go wherever you want. I think that that's the next step and I think he's maybe talking past that a little bit. Yeah, and he's talking past this. Again, engaging independent evaluators and advisors is industry best pract. MSL already does this today in several areas because it helps produce better work. Other labs can just do this too. It's like other labs also do that too. Also do that already. Well, as of last week, Anthropic does this with meter. Like they said that they were going to do that immediately. So they were doing badge and slide. No, but he's not saying that he's doing that. He's saying that he's doing the thing that every group that's making model has been doing for the most part in the prior era for a long time. But the new thing is badge and slack access and desk, even though you don't work at the company. And that's what everyone's like, whoa, that's crazy. Because these organizations are very, very secretive. And you're really going to let this nonprofit come in. It's like sort of a wild move. And that's why people are like, oh, wait, how aligned are they and what's the knock on implication? Like, can these people not leak? Can they be trusted? Are they going to go to cocktail party and be like, oh yeah, the new model is actually really bad or whatever. Like there's so many things that are like meta deals with leaks all the time. And so the prospect of bringing in a non employee who is there explicitly to whistleblow effectively and like is allowed to talk about anything and like is, you know, third party evaluator. Like, that is a huge step and I think that's why people are like, whoa, this is a big deal. This is a big proposal. Like if this was not a big thing, if anthropic was just like, oh yeah, we're going to do a benchmark with meter, everyone would be like, yeah, that's fine. Cool. Do that for sure. Awesome. But like people are like, wow, okay, like meter is going to have a slack access anthropic and you're asking other people to do that. Like that's. We got to know who these people are. We got to make sure that this is like the right team for this. This is sort of a crazy thing. This is sort of unprecedented. This doesn't happen a lot. Like, this is new. And so yeah, the newness is not fully embraced here. And I think that's a little bit of like, okay, you're not really engaging with like what's coming down the pipe, which is like, maybe a government employee in your building. That's not happening right now. Maybe a non profit from Berkeley. Do you like that, Mark? How do you feel about that? Are you cool? It seems like you're cool with it, but I don't know if you're actually going to be cool with it because it is a little wild. Right? It's a different thing. It's a new thing, but it's a modern, It's a modern. Pull up this image. What image are we pulling up? I want to see John's reaction. Okay, while we pull this up, let me tell you about public.com investing for those that take it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries and more with great customer service. Here we go, John. Let me see. Boom. This meme's been applied to like seven different people this week. I know, but I think it's, it's particularly relevant because you have, you have Elon, Demis, Dario, Sam, all, you know, all these people from different factions that are at or. I've seen this applied to Theo. I've seen this applied to Cohere. I've seen this applied to DeepMind and Gemini. I've seen this be applied to Msl People are just whatever shot they want to take, they're applying this. It's not. It's a. It's too broad at this point. There's people. I think it's the inverse. It's all clowns and there's one tactical soul. There's groups that are at the frontier. They're on the battlefield, and they're deeply concerned. Yeah. And you have Zuck coming in here saying, yeah, like I. I built a cool personal agent. It's. It's aligned. What's there to worry about? Nothing to worry about. Yeah. It's just, you're not really. You're not really in. You're not really on the battlefield yet. And I'm not saying with Watermelon, they can't get there. And Muse seems like it's. Yeah. And amazing reviews. It seems like an amazing product and that's very exciting. But I think it's just. Again, I thought the whole post was silly. Just like I thought the last post was silly. Nick Carter liked the post. He said Zuck pretty handily dismantles Dario's talking points here. People want models that are aligned with them. Suddenly punches back at Anthropic's normative constitutional approach. Labs already face liability if they screw up, so incentives to release aligned models is already baked in. Meta delayed Muse for alignment reasons subtly questions Anthropic trying to king make meter implies meter isn't Anthropic Patsy meter. Meta doesn't need to coordinate with anyone to work on alignment, just something labs should naturally do. But Mark Chen from the top rope, according to Kevin Roos, says there aren't race dynamics off the frontier. And yeah, it's. It's a, it's a. It's a war on the Again, it all comes down to like, there is absolutely zero shot that Zuck doesn't want to get to RSI yesterday and is doing. I thought he said that they were working on rsi. I thought that was like, announced as like a explicit goal maybe three to six months ago. It was. He was like super Intelligence rsi. And again, like, I just feel like it's not unique to Zuck. Many leaders operate like this, but he will say, whatever the pick me thing is, at that time, it would be more aggressive to be like, I'm P. Doom 0 and I'm racing to RSI. Like, I'm P. Doom 0and I'm racing to RSI. All these other people. I'll see you on the other side, brother. Meta, he said in August 10, 2026 Meta must build out a sufficiently large amount of compute that we can allocate enough to recursive. Yeah, yeah, they're doing rsi. They're doing rsi. Everyone's trying to. I mean, RSI can also mean so many things. It can mean. Yeah. You looked up, you summarized some archive papers for new strategies like the Automated Research Intern is in part an RSI initiative. It's. It's not the final RSI loop, the closed loop RSI that people are really worried about, but it's all gradations of this. What does David Sacks think about this? I imagine that he's a fan. He says. Mark Zuckerberg. He just quotes it. He says Meta delayed shipping Muse for several months to focus on safety. Yeah, Sachs is very much like, if you want to slow down, go right ahead. And so he's fine with that. All right. Anyway, the reviews for Muse are really good. Mirage. Let me say, let me say this because I've been a little harsh. People genuinely love Muse. I think it seems to be a great product. The race between Muse and Instinct is already quite exciting. Niraj says, my wife tells me Muse is good. And quote, for the girlies. Yeah, that's extremely bullish. But. But, yeah, I mean, insane distribution advantage. I think it's. Yeah, let's see where it's at on the charts. Number three, some. We got it, Nick. We got to get this company vented on here. I just do not. I've brought it up like a million times. It's like you have the most insane AI. Race, gambling race, short form drama race. And Vinted is always in the top five. Wow. Just like a secondhand clothes retailer competing with like a million other secondhand clothes retailers. Yeah, but they're Vinted. There we go. Like, Meta is like pouring every. Pouring, pouring billions of eyeballs into growing Muse. And Vinted is. Didn't. Wait, didn't Gemini and Google announce a personal agent at IO this year? Where did that go? Because it's very odd that Gemini has. So, yes, the distribution advantage from Meta platforms is significant, but a lot of people are on Android. A lot of people already have Gmail and Google Calendar and they have Google Maps and they have the phone number of every business. And so when you think about booking restaurant reservations, doing all this different stuff, you would think that that product would have gotten more traction, but I feel like Gemini personal agent did not go through the same hype cycle that Muse is currently on. Gemini Spark, it died on the vine. Yeah. What happened with. Wait, they call it Spark is that, but isn't it musespark? Yeah. Dylan, in the next chat everyone's calling, she uses it. Oh, yeah. It's mostly just using Gemini and toggling. Okay. Yeah, it hasn't had the most breakout things. There are some killer use cases. I mean, everyone's talking about booking reservations, summarizing ASM at IO, summarizing reels couldn't describe what it did. No one knows. The world's most mysterious. It's the most mysterious agent. Yeah, but they got to have something soon coming. And I do feel like the Gemini distribution, like they still have a pretty significant share of the chat market, pops up in your email and it says, oh, here, you can just email this thing and maybe another Gemini tab that I can open. I can open three if I'm in Gmail and Chrome and pull them all open. I don't know what happened to the Kalshi AI price tracker. Do you see this? We talked to Tarek when this launched and I was like, oh, this is cool. This will allow you to understand, basically a proxy for the AI build out. How are GPUs trading banned? Banned. Apparently. Before we get into this,

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