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Market because there's this, like, you know, the whole, like, you're not prepared if it's not a bubble concept. But there's like a dual anxiety where, like, if AI gets too good, there's mass unemployment. Everyone's worried about that. But if AI is a bubble and it collapses, you go into a recession and everyone loses their job. And, like, you're in a similar scenario of, like, economic anxiety for both the. Not necessarily the true doomers. I mean, obviously they face a similar, you know, opinion. But even if you're just like in the it's overheated camp, there's real risk to the stability. And I think that's where a lot of the bubble concerns come from. Although we're certainly not seeing very many signs of the bubble. I mean, obviously the valuations are high, but so are the revenue growth charts. So we can go through. Some of the folks are arguing. Are you more of a back of the envelope guy or a napkin math guy? Oh, that's interesting. I have a napkin here from Wonderco from the event I brought in. Oh, would you look at that little souvenir. I like a napkin. I like a napkin. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, napkin math is insane. It's extremely hard to write on a napkin. Totally. It's way easier to write on the back of an envelope. Yeah. You get a big envelope, you can get an envelope that's and a half, but it's effective. It's effectively. An envelope is sophisticated. An envelope is, is kind of a core business utility. Yeah. Napkins can be used for anything. If you're in napkin math, you got to pivot. I will say I'm much more of a napkin math guy. I can't. I mean, just, just, just the phrase that you pull. Spiritually. Spiritually. And the phrase that I pull. But if I can't get excited about an opportunity based on what. What can fit on a napkin, then I'm never gonna get excited about it. Right. There's usually like. So you think a napkin is definitionally smaller. It's a less amount math. Totally. It's not. It's not. It's a lesser vehicle than an envelope. Yeah. Cause a big envelope you could do a full spreadsheet on. Totally. You could write out comps. Totally. And have multiple cells. No. So in practice, I'm a napkin math guy. But if something was really serious, I would probably pull out the envelope. Yeah. We've been doing too much napkin math around here. Time to pull out the big guns. Let's get out the envelope. Speaking of envelopes. So this morning I was telling Tyler, yeah, I'm incredibly overwhelmed with slacks, emails, DMs on every platform, LinkedIn, DMs, Instagram, DMs, X DMs, all the different messaging apps. And I was thinking, how cool would it be if there was a service where you connected all your inboxes to, and then every day they would print out all of the different messages and then bring them to you and you could put like a box, you could put a box outside of your house and they would just put them in there. And then at a specific time, you know, maybe in a roughly like two hour window, you could go out and grab all the printed out messages and sort of, sort of like leaf through them, decide what you need to respond to. You would, potentially, because you're only getting messages once a day, you would probably be a lot more intentional about what you wrote back and forth. Right. And I think that could be sort of the opposite of Earth Class mail, those virtual mailboxes, because they'll, they'll, they'll take your physical mail. Yeah, but I want everything. I want everything. You want everything in the print. I want to put a box outside of my house and people put. And I think there's something there. Yeah. Trump, I mean, Trump literally does this. He does that, right? Yeah. He gets emails printed out and then he'll write with a big marker his response and then his assistant will scan it and then email it back. Yeah. More, more on C. Fry says a napkin is more available than envelope. Very true. Often the best business meetings were not scheduled as a business meeting. So there aren't envelopes around. There's no envelopes around, but there's plenty of napkins. Yeah. Also, I mean, you're saying napkins are smaller, but if you're at a restaurant and you have like a fab napkin. Yeah. And you want. Those can be pretty big. So you're. But I feel like it's bad form to be at a restaurant. Like, you're not supposed to ruin the napkins. Or do you carry a pen that has washable ink? You have the crayons for the kids. Right. People are. The chat is saying they don't ask you. Chad is saying, I could call my service the United States. That's a good name. Thank you, Alex. That's a great name. That's sort of like the San Francisco Artificial Intelligence Company or something like that. Or the browser company of New York. It would be inspired by that. Yeah. I think that even with the crayons, he uses crayon. Close fisted grip right on the table. Right on the tablecloth. Okay. Yeah. I feel like if you're given crayons, you are expected to maintain that the child uses the crayons only on the children's menu, which is typically made out of paper. Very disposable. If you see the child using the crayons on a cloth napkin, you are expected as a patron to intervene. Jackson says digitize this service and call it email. There we go. We gotta. We gotta get. We gotta establish the mailbox first. We got an idea. But then we can go there. But I like where you're going. We got an idea. Well, there's some other. There's some other posts about the markets. Justin Spitler says them be careful buying semis here. Obviously, the market's very, very. Let's pull up this video. Travis. Let's play this video. Oh, this is Travis Pastrana. Yes. That's amazing. Nitro Circus we mentioned many times on the show. Is he drinking a Red Bull? Yeah. No parachute? No. Oh, no parachute. Yeah. So he jumps out of the plane, no parachute. That's crazy. Drinking a Red Bull. That's actually. And then he connects. He's got to do some tricks. He's really taking his time here. The tension is building, building, building. And so he connects with someone who wraps him up. And then do they pull the parachute connect to each other or do they strap him to them? Okay, there is a strap. Strap themselves because it seems sort of crazy just to bear hug and hope for the best. It's Red Bull. Anything could happen. I would.

Speaking of envelopes, so this morning I was telling Tyler, yeah, I'm incredibly overwhelmed with slacks, emails, DMS on every platform, LinkedIn, DMS, Instagram, DMS, X DMS, all the different messaging apps. And I was thinking, how cool would it be if there was a service where you connected all your inboxes to, and then every day they would print out all of the messages and then bring them to you? And you could put like a box. Yeah, but you could put a box outside of your house and they would just put them in there. And then at a specific time, you know, maybe in a roughly like two hour window, you could go out and grab all the printed out messages, sort of, sort of like leaf through them, decide what you need to respond to. You would, potentially, because you're only getting messages once a day, you would probably be a lot more intentional about what you wrote back and forth. Right. And I think that could be sort of the opposite of Earth Class mail, those virtual mailboxes, because they'll, they'll, they'll take your physical mail. Yeah, but I want everything, I want everything. You want everything in print. I want to put a box outside of my house that people put. And I think there's something there. Yeah. Trump, I mean, Trump literally does this. He does that, right? Yeah. And then he'll, he'll write with a big marker his response, and then his assistant will scan it and then email it back. Yeah. More on. Seafri says a napkin is more available than envelope. Very true. Often the best business meetings were not scheduled as a business meeting. So there aren't envelopes around. There's no envelopes around, but there's plenty of napkins. Yeah. Also, I mean, you're saying napkins are smaller, but if you're at a restaurant and you have like a fabric napkin. Yeah. And you want to be big, those can be pretty big. So you're. But I feel like it's bad form to be at a restaurant. Like, you're not supposed to ruin the napkin. Or do you carry a pen that has washable ink? You have the crayons for the kids. Right. People are. The chat is saying. They don't ask you. The chat is saying, I could call my service the United States Post Office. That's a good name. Thank you. Alex. That's a great name. That's sort of like the San Francisco Artificial Intelligence Company or something like that. Or the browser company of New York. It would be inspired by that. Yeah. I think that even with the grand closed fisted grip right on the table, Tablecloth. Okay. Yeah. I feel like if you're given crayons, you are expected to maintain that the child uses the crayons only on the children's menu, which is typically made out of paper. Very disposable. If you see the child using the crayons on a cloth napkin, you are expected as a patron, to intervene. Jackson says digitize this service and call it email. There we go. We got us. We got to get. We got to establish the mailbox first. We got an idea, but then we can go there. But I like where you're going. I got an idea. Well, there's some other. There's some other posts about the. The markets. Justin Spitler says them be careful buying semis here. Obviously, the market's very, very overheated. Travis, let's play this video. Oh, this is Travis Pastrana. Yes. That's amazing. Nitro Circus we mentioned many times on the show. Is he drinking a Red Bull? What a good. Yeah. No parachute. Oh, no parachute. Yeah. So he jumps out of the plane, no parachute. That's crazy. Drinking a Red Bull. That's excellent. And then he connects. He's gotta do some tricks. He's really taking his time here. The tension is building, building, building. And so he connects with someone who wraps his. Him up. And then do they pull the parachute or do they strap him to them? Oh, okay. There is a strap themselves because it seems sort of crazy just to bear hug and hope for the best. I don't know. It's. Anything could happen. I would expect him to be delivered a full parachute, his own parachute that he. Then, you know, dons. But he made it. Wow. Well, that's what it's like investing in semiconductors right now. I guess. Anyway, how was your last two days, Tyler? What'd you get up to? It was sick. I was at the. I went to the trial. You went to the trial? Elon trial. Okay, walk me through it. You left the studio on Tuesday? Yes. Way, way, way, way before this. The chat is still going. They said if Gary Tan gets a hold of this service, he's going to call it Gmail. Gmail is good. Something there. Gmail is. If he vibe codes a full Gmail replacement, anything's possible. So you leave the office at 2 after we wrap the show on Tuesday. You went straight to the airport. I did. Okay. And then.

So we can go through some of the folks that are arguing. Are you more of a back of the envelope guy or a napkin math guy? Oh, that's interesting. I have a napkin here from Wonderco from the event I brought in. Would you look at that little souvenir? I like a napkin. I like a napkin. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, napkin math is insane. It's extremely hard to write on a napkin. It's way easier to write on the back of an envelope. Yeah. And you can get a big envelope. You can get an envelope that's in and a half. But it's. It's effectively an envelope is sophisticated spreadsheet. An envelope is. Is. Is kind of a core business utility. Yeah. Napkins can be used for anything. If you're in napkin math, you got to pivot. I will say I'm much more of a napkin math guy. I can't. I mean, just, Just, Just the phrase that you pull spiritually. Spiritually. And the phrase that I pull. But if I can't get excited about an opportunity based on what. What can fit on a napkin, then I'm never gonna get excited about it. Right. There's usually like. So you think a napkin is definitionally smaller. It's a less amount of math. It's a lesser vehicle than an envelope. Yeah. Cause a big envelope you could do a full spreadsheet on. Totally. You could write out comps and have multiple cells. No. So in practice, I'm a napkin math guy, but if something was replaced, really serious, I would probably trade. Yeah. We've been doing too much napkin math around here. Time to pull out the big guns. Let's get out the envelope. Speaking of envelopes.

We're going on a blimp, baby, for blimp maxing. Let's go. We've been waiting for this for so long. We've been thinking about blimps, what we could do with them, and we finally have the perfect fit. I couldn't be more excited. Thank you for tuning in to TVPN today. It's a fantastic show. Thank you to our guests and our audience. And leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Sign up for our newsletter@tvpn.com and that was supposed to cut to jaw on. There we go. All right, anyway.

Think this hands on approach is for everyone inside of a company. How did Jordy, please. Do you think a lot about what you would do if you were you from 10 or 15 years ago and you were trying to disrupt Airbnb? Like, is that, is that a helpful exercise? And yeah, and it's slightly, and it's slightly scary because I think that I've told. I had a meeting with our team recently. I said the 26 year old me and Joe and Nate could, could F us up if we wanted to. And so I told them this is what that's because, but that's because you understand this market better than anyone else. You know, you know the key drivers. Like I don't think any 26 year old off the street, hey, I'm paranoid. I think that if everybody sits still, I think a different group of 20 or 30 year olds could also disrupt us. And I think that's true of every one of us. And maybe the. By the way, maybe that's not true and maybe that's not reassuring because we do have a brand that's a noun and a verb. We've got a global network effect. Yeah. I think it's actually hard to build a network that may not be possible, but the software and the app, I told our team, like, we can't sit still. Like our app is beautiful, it's really nice, but we got to be in a world of AI native. And here's a key point I would make. I do not think a chat bot is the right interface for travel or E commerce. That might be a radical statement. ChatGPT launched third party apps last year. In March, they shut them down. I don't think a chatbot's right interface. It's got four or five problems. The first problem is it's text based. You know, photos are an afterthought. The second is there's no direct manipulation. You have to type every single prompt, which is fine for a conversation, but you can't like add filters, you can't cook around. The third problem is it's hard to compare. A lot of E commerce and travel is comparison shopping. If you have thousands of options, the AI has to know exactly what you want to be able to show you one or two things. But you usually want to see more choices and you get lost. And most AI, single player, it's not collaborative, let alone the fact that Airbnb requires people to have an account that 85% of people send a message. So what I'm trying to do is. Sorry, sorry to push back there. But I'm. Yeah, my wife's planning a vacation and there's like three ish hotels that we're looking at and we're looking for specific dates and she. Theoretically, I'm not saying the products are there yet, but theoretically you could ask a chatbot. I'm interested in staying in this location, I'm interested in these hotels. I have XYZ number of people and it could go and the agent could go and pull together like relevant sort of like listings or room types, et cetera, pricing, show me pictures and then actually do an analysis of the trade offs based on all the information available as well as information in other parts of the Internet and pull it together and then she could share that chat with me and we could both review it together. Yes, I agree. That's the future. And that's not a chatbot we described. That's not a chatbot. It's going to be a completely different interface. It's going to be. Well, I guess you'll have to wait and see. But I think the future are not apps. The future agents, but I don't think they're going to be text forward. I think they're going to be really rich user interface. And so I think the current chatbot paradigm, what you're describing, it can do it. I just don't think it's the best way to do what you just described. I think there's a much more immersive way to do that. Got it. As you think back, I mean it feels like at various points clearly there's been like, oh, is all of this going to move to chatbots or are there going to be a million competitors that are all vibe coding exactly what you have. And so is software remote. The stock has not been beaten down during the SaaS apocalypse. But have you had to process those with investors? Have you had to walk people through Airbnb strengths again? I'm sure you did after the like the 2028 intelligence crisis. Thankfully they picked doordash instead of you guys. But they're very. I really appreciate them picking on someone else for once, but. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think there were entire like actually when ChatGPT launched a third party apps, their stock probably went down like 7%. And by the way, I thought it was a really good idea for them to do third party apps. I think it could have been successful but they would have needed a richer SDK for it to work and it would have like, like the App Store. Apple's App Store was good for Airbnb and was good for every company because they had a really rich user interface. Maybe this is the point I'm making that imagine using iMessage on your iPhone to do everything when in fact like every other app has a unique interface. So what I think is E commerce. You want a very rich user interface. It would be agentic. You can be able to have a conversation with it, you can talk to it, I could talk back to it. But I think the point is it has to be more visual. Yeah, I think a text based interface is for some solutions and a chatbot that's visual. Yeah, that would work. I'm just saying today's chatbots aren't the right solution. But the answer to your question I had a couple new employees. Like one of our new team members is a guy named Ahmed who is the CTO of Airbnb. Now he led the llama models at Meta and one of the comments he made.

Nuclear energy company and all of these things. So it's. Oh, yes, it's great. And so, you know, there are just so many amazing companies to be built, and I'm ready to work with them. And I don't know if you guys saw my new website, but I've got my call sign. Okay, what's your call sign? Better call Zol. Better call Zol. Better call Zoloun. And it's the call sign I was built for. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you, John. I appreciate it. Jordy, always good hanging out. I'll give these to the guys. Fantastic. Perfect. We have Brian Chesky from Airbnb joining in just a minute. We can pull up what else is in the timeline. In the meantime, someone. Oh, there are some birthday announcement. David Attenborough turned 100 years old. Wow. He's called the most consequential broadcaster of our time. And if you haven't gone down the David Attenborough rabbit hole, I highly recommend it. Major inspiration for travel. And I'm glad we have Brian Chesky from Airbnb here to talk about all things travel and his business. He's in the waiting room. We'll bring him in to the TV ultra realm right now. Brian, how are you doing? Good. How are you guys doing? We're doing fantastic. Welcome back to the show. It's been too long. Yeah. Why don't we kick it off with just an Update on how 2026 is going, how the business is going. What's new in your world? Yeah, I mean, things are really good. We've accelerated growth for the first time since the pandemic. We grew 10% last year in revenue. And this quarter we announced that revenue was 18%. So 10 to 18%, which is a pretty big acceleration in marketplaces are really, really hard. Right. Like, it's kind of like gravity. Once a marketplace at our size doing around $100 billion in gross booking a year, start to come down, it's really hard to tip that curve. So this has been a pretty big feat for the team to be able to do it. So how do you do it? You know, it's kind of funny. A number of years ago, we. So I noticed that, you know, as we got bigger, we started losing a little bit startup intensity, that startup energy. And I asked myself, like, how can we get that energy back? And we basically took a very small team. We named the team Project. Why? The name doesn't really matter. But it basically, I took a very small team of people and we said, we're going to focus on, on a very, very small service area. And we decided to focus on conversion rate. The guest journey and I basically tried to work with a team like as if we were at Rall Street. Ralstreet was the apartment that Joanie and I started. And I said we're going to act like a startup. And the team just grinded really, really hard. We weren't working like a big company, we were very small team, grinding really hard, focusing on obsessing over the customer experience. Really look in the data and we really got a lot of points on the board. And then we really started taking these pods and we really started working with the teams, trying to coach them how we worked in the early days and I just think the pace increase, the intensity increase. We really like tried to bring in like world class people onto the team. They got very, very focused. We tried to get all the management and bureaucracy out of their way and it's been a couple of years and in fact we're doing this last year. But one of the things is, as you know, financial results are lagging indicators, especially when you're a big company. So it takes sometimes a while to get the financial numbers to reflect what's happening inside the company. But I feel like we're a startup again more than ever before, like where we feel much younger and smaller than earlier. And I think with AI that would be other thing is 60% of our code is now written by AI, which is twice our benchmark of our competitors and peers. And it's really, really helping us, I think is a huge boon to us. I don't know if it's helped the OTAs, but it's helped us with customer service. The cost per customer Service tickets down 10%, 40%. People who contact me, the AI solves the problem for them and we brought us the entire journey. So everything is really accelerating on the, on the special team that went in to optimize conversion rate. I imagine you have folks internally whose job was basically the customer journey already. Then you bring in your special team and is there some sort of culture clash there? Like how do you set people up for success? To not get too political in that environment, actually see it as an opportunity for a win, some fresh eyes, some fresh ideas, what is required to actually have success? Because I think a lot of big companies that bring in McKinsey and they put together a big deck and everyone freaks out and thinks they're getting fired and maybe some of the good ideas are surfaced but it never really goes through. So what do you have to communicate to the team that is receiving information from this new KWAI team? Yeah, so it's a great thing. I mean, really what I'm talking about has played out over like really five years. And the term founder mode, what it really meant that Paul Graham wrote was about me, like skipping Layo's management and going into the details with teams and instead of trying, I mean, here's my advice. If you're a CEO or a leader of a company that's big, don't try to change the whole company, try to change a corner of the company. It's kind of like, don't renovate the whole house. Pick like one room and make it perfect and then go room to room. So I really told teams, like, hey, like, I actually didn't replace the team. I took the team that was already working. I like handpicked some people on the team, but I really just taught them the pace. And I would review work very regularly. So I'd sometimes review the work weekly or even daily to just teach them a level of intensity, a level of perfection. And it was unfamiliar and uncomfortable. And I will tell you that not everyone liked it. And some people didn't stick around the company because they didn't like that way of working. And but those who stuck around and the vast majority did, they realize, wow, actually when the CEO is involved, it's actually easier. There's less bureaucracy. I try to make the work better and I try to clear all obstacles. And so I basically did that group by group. And the great thing is like I was in massive number of details, reviewing everything for years. But eventually it's like muscle memory. It's like, I know an instructor or a coach, you have to teach them, but once they learn that and they have the muscle memory like a golf swing, they, you can step back and now it's muscle memory. So now I don't have to be in all these details, all these teams, but I would just say a couple of things. People listening, like, great leadership is presence, not absence. I think a generation of management consulting or management school management teaching taught us that CEOs should trust their people and get out of the way. And I don't think trust and get out of the way are the same thing. Again, I think leadership is presence. And if you, if you, you should actually be partnering with your people, you should be on the field with them. And if you're a, if you're a cavalry general, you should be on a horse, you should be on the battlefield, you're not like you're not overseas somewhere else just writing out blueprints. You got to be on the field with them and you got to be leading from example. I think leadership from the front, not from the back. And so these are just some of the things we do. And I think AI is going to create like the equivalent of an AI founder mode which is now you got to be even more hands on. And I don't think in the era of AI there should be any pure people managers because you're so close to the details, to the data that everyone has the opportunity to be hands on. And it's hard to imagine only managing people and not agents. So I think this hands on approach is for everyone inside of a company. How did Jordy, please. Do you think a lot about what you would do if you were you from 10 or 15 years ago and you were trying to disrupt Airbnb? Like is that, is that a helpful exercise? And yeah, and it's slightly in a slightly scary because I think that I've told. I had a meeting with our team recently. I said that 26 year old me and Joe and Nate could, could f us up if we wanted to. And so I told him this is what I would. But that's because, but that's because you understand this market better than anyone else. You know, you know the key drivers. Like I don't think any 26 year old off the street, hey, I'm paranoid. I think that if everybody sits still, I think a different group of 20 or 30 year olds could also disrupt us. And I think that's true of every one of us. And maybe the. By the way, maybe that's not true and maybe that's not reassuring because we do have a brand that's a noun and a verb. We've got a global network effect. Yeah. I think it's actually hard to build a network that may not be possible, but the software and the app, I told our team like we can't sit still. Like our app is beautiful, it's really nice but we got to be in a world of AI native. And here's a key point I would make. I do not think a chat bot is the right interface for travel or E commerce. That might be a radical statement. ChatGPT launched third party apps last year. In March they shut them down. I don't think a chat bots right interface, it's got four or five problems. Their first problem is it's text based, you know, photos are an afterthought. The second is there's no direct manipulation. You have to type every single prompt, which is fine for a conversation, but you can't like add filters, you can't cook around. The third problem is it's hard to compare. A lot of E commerce and travel is comparison shopping. If you have thousands of options, the AI has to know exactly what you want to be able to show you one or two things. But you usually want to see more choices and you get lost. And most AI, single player, it's not collaborative, let alone the fact that Airbnb it requires people to have an account that 85% of people send a message. So what I'm trying to do is match. Sorry, sorry to push back there but I'm. My wife's planning a vacation and there's like three ish hotels that we're looking at and we're looking for specific dates and she. Theoretically, I'm not saying the products are there yet, but theoretically you could ask a chatbot. I'm interested in staying in this location, I'm interested in these hotels. I have XYZ number of people and it could go and the agent could go and pull together like relevant sort of like listings or room types, etc. Pricing, show me pictures and then actually do an analysis of the trade offs based on all the information available as well as information in other parts of the Internet and pull it together and then she could share that chat with me and we could both review it together. Yes, I agree. That's the future. And that's not a chat bot we described. Yeah, that's not a chat bot. It's going to be a completely different interface. It's going to be. Well, I guess you'll have to wait and see. But I think the future are not apps. The future agents, but I don't think they're going to be tax forward. I think they're going to be really rich. User interface. Okay. And so I think the current chatbot paradigm, what you're describing, it can do it. I just don't think it's the best way to do what you just described. I think there's a much more immersive way to do that. Yeah. As you think back, I mean it feels like at various points clearly there's been like, oh, is all of this going to move to chatbots or are there going to be a million competitors that are all vibe coding exactly what you have. And so is software remote. The stock has not been beaten down during the SaaS apocalypse. But have you had to process those with investors? Have you had to Walk people through Airbnb strengths again. I'm sure you did. After the like the 2028 intelligence cris. Thankfully they picked doordash instead of you guys. But I really appreciate them picking on someone else for once. But yeah, no, absolutely. I think there were entire. I actually when ChatGPT launched a third party apps, their stock probably went down like 7% and by the way, I thought it was a really good idea for them to do third party apps. I think it could have been successful, but they would have needed a richer SDK for it to work and it would have like, like the App Store. Apple's App Store was good for Airbnb and was good for every company because they had a really rich user interface. Maybe this is the point I'm making that imagine using iMessage on your iPhone to do everything, when in fact like every other app has a unique interface. So what I think is E commerce. You want a very rich user interface. It would be agentic. You can be able to have a conversation with it, you can talk to it, it could talk back to it. But I think the point is it has to be more visual. Yeah, I think a text based interface is for some solutions. Yeah. And a chat bot, that's visual. Yeah, yeah, that would work. I'm just saying today's chat bots aren't the right solution. But the answer to your question, I had a couple of new employees. Like one of our. One of our new team members is a name, a guy named Ahmed who is the CTO of Airbnb now. He led the llama models at Metta. And one of the comments he made to me was he said, wow, yeah, Airbnb is so much more than the app. And in fact, the app that you see is like 20% of Airbnb. And we have typically 4 or 5 million people staying in Airbnb every night in more than 100 countries around the world. So there's a lot more to do around payments, around customer service, adjudicating everything we have to, you know, we have a $3 million guarantee against theft or property damage for a million homes a night. That's $3 trillion. You know, there's just so many types of things around managing five and a million. Host. We have a host app. So there's a lot of things that are beyond the guest app. I actually think the guest app would be pretty easy to copy. And I think in the age of AI, you can make a better app than ours. And we want to make that app before anyone else does. We want to be agentic. But I think the key is most of Airbnb is not the app that you use. It's mostly the offline experience. It's the operation. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. The imessage example is good. It's even, maybe even going deeper into like old SMS because iMessage has hydrated so many things with the reactions and you paste a link and it hydrates it and it's becoming more of a visual tool. But it is a long road. Question. One of the things. Yeah, well, before you say it, one of the things is the last time I was on, I did make a comment and I'll make it again. Almost every company is an enterprise company. And the last stat I think I said on TVPN was like three months ago and stats haven't changed. I think it was 175 companies in a YC batch and I think 16 were consumer. That trend hasn't changed. Almost everyone is going into coding, almost everyone's going to enterprise. I think that's great. My whole point though is that the consumer experience hasn't fundamentally changed that much. Being a chatbot and I think the consumer is a massive opportunity for AI and I think it's going to need to be a richer user interface. I think people that want to do more things, they want it to be. I mean, the modern AI today is text, photos and buttons, mostly in some videos. And I think there is a more breakthrough visual paradigm that can be much more immersive. And with the new image and video generation models, you could do something so much more immersive. So the exact example you gave a. Trying to book a hotel. Yeah, you can do it on chat. Bottom but there's probably some more breakthrough way to imagine that, to visualize it, to see the neighborhood, to see the map, to be able to talk to it, to understand where it is, to be able to compare photos, different hotels. There is something, I think, richer on the horizon. Yeah, that was. I was, I was surprised at the push into browsers last year from some, some different AI companies specifically because I always, I already felt like an alarm, like the, the chat bots were helping me browse around the Internet. It was like just double down on that and helping me find information all over the Internet. I like that it's brought together in a standardized way. Right. If I like the example, you know, of comparing like different hotels. Right. It's nice to have it just like formatted the same way. So I'm looking at it. I'm not being like Influenced. I want to be influenced by the images and like the property but not necessarily the design of the website. Right. Because they can be disconnected. I wanted to ask if you think LLMs will impact travel in the world in the way that social media did and travel trends specifically. Because Instagram nowadays like a place like Marfa and like Texas, right. It's like it's random town or you know, artistic type town in Texas. And then it just becomes a cool place because of Instagram. And then, and then, and then the entire kind of town evolves because of that. I can imagine like people researching like places to go with LLMs could ultimately drive some of that and then ultimately reinforce each other. But. But what do you think? Yeah, maybe the simple framework is think about a travel journey. Step one is destination discovery. Where should I travel? Step two is flights. How do I get there? Step three is where do I stay? Urban beer, hotel. Step four is like what do I do when I get there? Restaurants, activities. And step five is typically like logistics, car rental services. And then step six is you're in the city and then you might want to do things that time spontaneously. I think LMS or let's call it the LM technology applied to, I'm arguing a slightly richer user interface than typical chatbot will be revolutionary for step one. Step two for destination discovery and flights. Also because flights are not very hard to build. There's just three global distribution systems. Anyone can pipe in an API and have a flight booking app pretty, pretty quickly. And so I think the alums are really, really good at destination discovery. If you want to say like hey, I want to go somewhere that's like Paris but it's a little more affordable. It's good to go in August. I like Opera. Like it's going to give you like a very rich like suggestion of places to go. Now I think the current chatbot doesn't have really rich maps. I think it could do a lot more visually. I think eventually chatbots or this new interface could be very video based. So imagine a chatbot that was actually video based or very, very photo based rather than a little less text based. I think that would probably be what you'd want for travel. I think what I'm describing would disrupt travel more than the current chat bots which are more acting like Google sending referral traffic and they actually, the traffic from these chatbots are converting higher than Google. And so actually the chat bots are actually additive to travel companies to disremediate travel company. You would really want to dismediate the travel journey and have to be much richer. Yeah. I feel like. Do you remember that company, Hipmunk? I think it was founded. Yes. Really cool founders, right? Yeah. Actually the CEO of Reddit. That's right. Steve Huffman, Right? Yes. Are you talking about hip camp? No, Hipmunk. Hipmunk was Hipmunk. It was a really cool flight booking. It was a really cool flight booking dashboard. And it would rank the flights by paying like a pain index. So it would say, well, you're not going to face financial pain because it's a really cheap flight, but you do have a stopover or you do have to get to the airport super early. And so it would blend all these things together and it's something that it feels like could be vibe coded over a weekend now. And yet it is weird that when I open up the app store charts, I see ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, and then it's just AI chat apps. And we haven't had that breakout moment. Demis was on stage at YC actually talking about the fact that it feels weird that we have this super intelligence in the enterprise and vibe coding and 60% of Airbnb's code is written by AI now. And yet we don't have like a new AAA game or a new video game that everyone's playing. And I'm wondering, like, is that a lack of creativity? Is it a lack of risk taking, that there's just too much money, it's too obvious to be able, if you're good in AI, just go into enterprise because you'll raise a bunch of money, get a bunch of customers. It's really easy to make money. It's more risk on in consumer. Like, what do you think needs to happen? Or is it just the intelligence isn't quite there and maybe the next model is the one that unlocks it? This is such a good question. I think there's like three or four factors going on. The first factor is I saw a tweet recently that I think there's like 60 new Neo Labs being formed. Yeah. And I've met a number of these researchers and a lot of them are interested in doing the same things. And I think what I'm noticing is most of these teams are purely AI people. Yeah. They don't have product people or designers on their team. It's repeating things like science, they're picking things like coding, they're picking things like we want to create a different type of model. This is great, but I don't know if all 60 companies should be doing the same problem. And so what you're seeing is you don't see a big focus on people wanting to do consumer. I think some people think that the AGI can just figure out consumer. I think that's maybe simple overly simplistic thinking. I do think you have to have a point of view about consumer. So I think that's the first point. I think the second point is, you know, Silicon Valley has become more vibe and trend based than when I came to Silicon Valley 2007, although it was back then. And one of the things I think when people see enterprise companies doing well, they go into it and I think there's this like natural flywheel. The other thing is, I know in Y Combinator for example, we teach the Y Commodore companies use the other companies as their customers. Now back in the day we would get them to use our product as consumers. But I think everyone's figured out actually it's way more efficient to get them to become customers. It's like five code, five code gen startups all being like you code with me. Yes, exactly. And so I think enterprise makes a lot of sense until everyone does enterprise. And then suddenly like everyone's saying consumer is hard but you know, it's also hard like competing with 10 other companies and enterprise doing your idea too. That's also hard. Yeah. I think additionally the image and in video generation models are having a. I think image two is almost like a cloud code breakthrough is so good now in the sea dance video models that I think we're about to enter this new era where suddenly going beyond text is possible. Yeah. I think you're going to even be able to see real time AI generated interface in the next year or two. So my prediction is this has been the era of enterprise, even charge beauty, breakout, success. I would predict that most of revenue is going to be going to Codex. That's my. I might be wrong, but just given how much money is going to cloud and I think in the next two years you're going to see a massive revolution in consumer and I think you're going to need a couple of companies to lead the way. I think we need reference points. I mean even me saying the chat bots, not the interface people are asking well what is. And someone needs to be the one to do that. I mean we're going to try to do our part. I'm not sure Airbnb will be the company to blaze the trail, but I think someone has to. I think in another era it would have been Apple, like the Steve Jobs era. Apple would have done that. Maybe Apple will do that, but they would have been typically the company that would have done that. Yeah. Are you worried that everyone is working on the exact same thing? And when I say exact same thing, I mean agents that can do things on your computer and. Or look at the iPhone app store chart or look at the early stage startup market. Right. A lot of companies, the full spectrum of companies from hyperscalers to labs to Neo Labs to. I'm not too worried. I might be a little worried for the entrepreneurs if they're like the 10th company doing something. I mean like Peter Thiel was one of our earliest investors and he used to. He wrote this book zero to one that a lot of people listening probably read. He has a saying, competitions for losers. And you want to kind of try to do something that no one else is doing. Back in the day, that was enterprise because everyone was making an app. And now I just, I do be careful about being the 10th company doing something unless you're going to be a lot better decisively. It's just really, really hard in a crowded market. So you want to kind of zig when everyone else is zagging. So I'm not too worried, but maybe a little bit. And I would just encourage entrepreneurs to try to claim a space for their own. And by the way, Airbnb was that it was kind of accidental, but like in 2007, everyone wanted to do like a social networking something and we were like, it was tempting for us to try to be a social networking something something as well. It was accidental that we inflated through airbeds one weekend and created airbed and breakfasts and people thought it was the worst idea ever. I guess it became like the worst idea that ever worked. But we carved our own space, as did Uber, and we weren't trying to be anything else. And so I kind of. And by the way, OpenAI wasn't trying to be anyone else either. Maybe they were a little bit like DeepMind, but I was not the thing when OpenAI Anthropic got started. So I do think there is something about not chasing trends. I think once it's a trend, it can be a little crowded and to try to claim out your own space. And I would say there's so much of the US economy that AI hasn't yet touched. Yeah. On that note, how are you talking to. Or how would you talk to designers or RISD students about applying non technical skill sets or non AI disciplines, non computer science backgrounds to consumer. The reason I ask it is I feel like there's a lot of pushback against AI in design communities in colleges right now. Broadly, AI is not particularly popular and there's a lot of fear of job loss. But at the same time, I'm sure the tools have changed throughout the history and I feel like you believe that there's incredible opportunity. But I'm worried that some people are not jumping on that opportunity because they have hesitations about various oh well, does this displace this tool or how was this made or is this the right tool for the job? Should I even be using this? Yeah, I'm really worried that an entire generation of designers, artists and creative people are going to decide to kind of sit out AI. And I think it's the biggest opportunity for creative people in my lifetime. By the way, this is not the first time designers were late. We, we creatives and designers were really late to the Internet and web. So going back 30, 35 years, most the prestigious designers did not get into so called web design. Web design was considered a lower tier, lower status design and they stayed with print, all the established people. And so they did not really chase design. What ended up happening was because you had a lot of these really excellent designers that did not go into we design. I think what happened was a lot of, there were a lot of good people that became web designers, but I think there became a gap between web design and engineering. You had people that, you know, maybe didn't have the full, full design skill set. And what happened was this function emerged called product management. Product management, I'm not arguing against. We have product managers, very important. But in industrial design there's no product managers. For the most part they're industrial designers. In architecture, the architect is the product manager. And so I think what ended up happening in web design designs were very, very narrow. There was a void, product managers filled that void. I'm not arguing against that model, but I think if designers sit out, we're going to see is engineers and product managers designing for them. And I think the counterpoint is designers can be engineers and product people for intensive purposes. Said differently, if I were starting Airbnb today, I'd be vibe coding in cloud code. And I'm trying to do it now, I'm doing it for fun. I'm not really going to be doing anything productive Airbnb, but if I was 26, I would have thought of myself as a technical person. I think all designers should think of themselves as product people and as, you know, front end engineers, if anything. And so I think this is a boon. I don't think that the future of the Internet has to be all text based. I think it can be very visual. I think the photo and video generation models allow you to design incredibly rich interfaces. And this is, I think the best time in the world for designers and creative people to get involved in. I think they're just a little bit afraid and whatever we can do to enlist them to just get their hands dirty. Many designers are. I just think more should get involved and not begin getting out of typical wireframes. Just start coding. Do you think so? Assuming we solve this problem of not enough creative people working in consumer. We build. We as a society build cool new consumer products and experiences and apps. There's something that deserves to be at the top of the App Store. Has distribution and the acquisition of customers and users changed structurally. You were very good at SEO and Google and there was a referral program. Do those patterns still work? Are they broken? Is there a new playbook that needs to be rolled out for anyone who has something that's great, but they need to get it in the hands of consumers? Broadly, I think, I think we need new patterns. This is a funny saying. I think the highest turnover job of any executive in Silicon Valley might be the cmo. I don't know for sure, but like, you know, you don't see a lot of turnover CFOs. You don't see a lot of turnovers of CTOs. Yeah, but like Amazon was famously. And I don't know if part of my theory is that like what works in marketing changes every few years and you have to be adaptable in your old playbook gets outdated. So marketing is unfortunately one of the hardest functions. I have a huge amount of respect for people marketing because once something works, it almost becomes stale because then everyone does it. And so like influencer marketing was really successful until everyone did it and then people kind of tune it out. It's this thing called banner blindness. Banner blindness is after you see something over and over, you tend to be blind to it. And so you need a new tactic. So I think that. A couple thoughts. Number one, I think that just like we need new interface design, new creative experiential approaches, we also need new types of marketing. I don't know off the top of my head what that is. It's probably something we haven't done before. I mean, Joe and I, we did like bizarre things. Like we sold collectible cereal boxes and we like when social media was new, we were all over social media. And when when there were newspapers, we would hunt down reporters and like, try to get them to write about us. But people ask me, how do I get users? I'm like, all the tactics from 2008 aren't relevant anymore. So you gotta be relevant and you gotta find new tactics. The second thing I'd say though is you're right, the distribution is mature. When we started Airbnb, the App Store was young. In fact, the Internet was still young. I mean, we could just, you could launch a website and just ride the growth of the Internet. And it's hard. The Internet is not growing like it did before. In other words, people were coming onto the Internet and hundreds of millions a year new users. So I do think distribution for consumers mature. At the same time, the top apps in the App Store are new apps. They're mostly chat bots. So what that tells you, if you do something truly breakthrough and revolutionary, consumers will still probably find it. And so that's. I think, yeah, I think the two principles are do something so revolutionary, consumers will find you. And number two, you're going to have to find your own new tactics. And you know, anything that is standard is probably stale. Well said. I have one more. Yeah. Looking out into the future, you've ridden the growth of the short term rental market. You dominate it now is is the biggest opportunity to just continue to make the best product in the category, ride the continued growth of it. Or do you think there's another str size market for Airbnb? I think the biggest opportunity for me is to go beyond our core business. I do think, you know, core business does close to $100 billion in gross sales. If you net out all the other businesses growth, gross booking value, the total amount of reservations going through the site, I think that could probably double one day. I don't know how long that one day is, but for every person who stays in Airbnb, eight or nine stay in a hotel. I think we can get one extra person in an Airbnb eventually. And I think that can get you to 200 billion. I think there's a market much larger than Airbnb, which is hotels again, hotels about eight or nine times the size of Airbnb. I don't think we'll ever be a hotel dominant site, but we are going more aggressive into hotels. A fun thing is that about half the hotels in the world are independents and boutiques. They're not chain hotels and they're not really happy listing on the OTAs because they pay a higher commission. The chains. A lot of These independent hotels are being forced, or they feel like their hand is being forced to franchise to Marriott, to Hilton, other brands, because they have loyalty programs, they can, you know, they can negotiate lower commissions. So we think we can be a distribution channel for these boutiques, independents. That is a multibillion dollar market. I think another one would be services. There's no Amazon for services. And, you know, think about, like, you can hit a button and a car can pick you up, you can hit a button and food can be delivered to you. But what about hitting a button, having 80 other things possible? You know, I don't know if any one market is large, but if you add up the 80 different service verticals, that to me is another pretty big market. And then maybe the last one is like living stays longer than 30 days more and more people have a job via laptop. More people are nomadic, more people are moving around. That's another really big market. So I think for Airbnb, we're looking at really expanding to a lot of different categories, and I think that's where most of the growth is going to be in the future. Do billboards in San Francisco work on you going back to marketing? It's one of these old things where, like, yes, I completely agree with you. Like, the CMO who did the first billboard campaign back in the 50s, probably printed legend, you know, books written about them. Well, the billboard campaign that worked for the last couple years was just by so many billboards that people are like, wait, how did this company buy so many billboards? And so I'm wondering, is your thesis on marketing that these things go in cycles? And yes, we might be out of the influencer marketing meta right now, but it's going to come back in five, 10 years. Who knows that's possible? Or is it rise and fall and then never again? I think these channels, though, they don't go away. They just stop being like, if you do this thing, you're going to grow like crazy. Yeah. You still need to do that thing, but it's no longer an art. Okay. Yeah. What do you think? You guys are okay. So. So one thing I have to acknowledge. Yeah. Is I think all of us advertising works better on us than we admit. Yep. I honestly, I. We. We spent a lot on like, all these ads. And I kind of think to myself, do these really influence people? Like, and if they do, and if they didn't, we wouldn't be spending like a billion dollars on advertising. So I want to admit that advertising does influence us more than we realize. There's I think a lot of studies that show, like, oh, that doesn't change my mind, but you see something seven times in a. Probably even if you don't want to believe it, you might start believing it. Yep. So clearly it works. Yeah. I do think, though, the ROI of new ideas works a lot better. Just for example, we spent a lot of advertising, but the most popular marketing we've ever done is, like, when the Barbie movie came out, we took a house in Malibu. We turned the Barbie Malibu Dream House, and it was like, new. And the whole Internet talked about it. And the ROI of that was better than any ad we've ever done. Right. We've done things like that. So I do think doing kind of crazy, slightly unhinged things that people notice, like, I mean, you guys are successful because you're different. Right. I think. I think being different is the key to marketing. And so if you have a billboard, people are probably influenced, but if you. If it looks different than another billboard, it's going to work. So I think the key to marketing is to be different because you got to stand out. Yeah. Yeah. The Red Bull Baumgartner, the skydive from space is, I think, like a thousand X ROI. I think they spent less than $1 million on that. And I think it has a billion views or something like that. Great example of that space. But if, like, people did that and that would get bored as well. Yeah. And that's probably why they didn't do a sequel. And then another one. Another one. They went and found something else. Let's put a plane through a tunnel or fly a, you know, hot air balloon upside down or something. Get a blimp. Get a blimp on Airbnb that. I can go on a sky cruise sleeping in a blimp. Yeah. So that would be. That would be a. That would be a very good idea. Maybe we can talk about. I'd love that ship. It will podcast. Yeah. I don't know how long it takes to get to San Francisco. Yeah. La. To San Francisco. If it takes me two days, three days. But I have a beautiful view. Would you guys do that? I would 100. I would 100% do that for us and you. So. So. So we say things like this all the time where we're like, oh, yeah, like, we'll definitely, like, do something. And oftentimes it's hard to schedule. But we have been talking about blimps for, like, over a year. We know we can broadcast. We've been having to happen with a blimp. We' guests call in from their jets with Starlink, and the connection is perfect. So much so that people in our chat sometimes don't know that the person's on a plane. Okay, you first. Airbnb and TBPN are going to work together on a blimp partnership. You guys are going to broadcast across the country on a blimp. I love it. And everybody's going to be a part of that. Yeah. I want to make this work. Let's, let's, let's. Let's figure it out. We'll talk. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming. Have a great weekend, and we'll talk to you soon. You're the man. Thanks. All right, bye, guys. We're going on a blimp, baby, for blimp maxing. Let's go. We've been waiting for this for so long. We've been thinking about blimps, what we could do with them, and we finally have the perfect fit. I couldn't be more excited. Thank you for tuning in to TVPN today. It's a fantastic show. Thank you to our guests and our audience. And leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Sign up for our newsletter@tvpn.com and that was supposed to cut to John. There we go. All right. Anyway, we love you guys. Sign up for our newsletter. Leave us five stars. Thank you. We'll see you on Monday. Have a great weekend. Goodbye. Flashbang out. Something like that, right?

Just to remediate the travel journey and it have to be much richer. Yeah, I feel like. Do you remember that company Hipmunk? I think it was founded by somebody. Yeah, really cool. Yeah. Actually the CEO of Reddit. That's right. Steve Huffman. Right. Wait, are you talking about hip camp? No, Hipmunk. Hipmunk was Hipmunk. It was a really cool flight booking. It was a really cool flight booking dashboard. And it would rank the flights by pain, like a pain index. So it would say, well, you're not gonna face financial pain because it's a really cheap flight, but do have a stopover or you do have to get to the airport super early. And so it would blend all these things together and it's something that it feels like could be vibe coded over a weekend now. And yet it is weird that when I open up the app store charts, I see chat, cbt, Gemini, Claude, and then it's just a chat apps. And we haven't had that breakout moment. Demis was on stage at YC actually talking about the fact that it feels weird that we have this super intelligence in the enterprise and vibe coding and you're 60% of Airbnb code is written by AI now, and yet we don't have like a new AAA game or a new video game that everyone's playing. And I'm wondering like, is that a lack of creativity? Is it a lack of risk taking, that there's just too much money, it's too obvious to be able, if you're good in AI, just go into enterprise because you'll just raise a bunch of money, get a bunch of customers, it's really easy to make money. It's more risk on in consumer. Like, what do you think needs to happen? Or is it just the intelligence isn't quite there and maybe the next model is the one that unlocks it? This is such a good question. I think there's like three or four factors going on. The first factor is I saw a tweet recently that I think there's like 60 new Neo Labs being formed. And I've met a number of these researchers and a lot of them are interested in doing the same things. And I think what I'm noticing is most of these teams are purely AI people. They don't have product people or designers on their team. They're picking things like science, they're picking things like coding, they're picking things like we want to create a different type of model. This is great, but I don't know if all 60 companies should be doing the same problem. And so what you're seeing is you don't see a big focus on people wanting to do consumer. I think some people think that the AGI can just figure out consumer. I think that's maybe simple overly simplistic thinking. I do think you have to have a point of view about consumer. So I think that's the first point. I think the second point is, you know, Silicon Valley has become more vibe and trend based than when I came to Silicon Valley 2007, although it was back then. And one of the things I think when people see enterprise companies doing well, they go into it and I think there's this like natural flywheel. The other thing is, I know in Y Combinator for example, we teach the Y combinator companies use the other companies as their customers. Now back in the day we would get them to use our product as consumers. But I think everyone's figured out actually it's way more efficient to get them to become customers. Like 5 code 5 code gen startups all being like you code with me. Yes, exactly. And so I think enterprise makes a lot of sense until everyone does enterprise. And then suddenly like everyone's saying consumer is hard but you know, it's also hard like competing with 10 other companies and enterprise doing your idea too. That's also hard. Yeah. I think additionally the image and in video generation models are having a. I think image two is almost like a cloud code breakthrough is so good now in the sea dance video models that I think we're about to enter this new era. We are suddenly going beyond text as possible. I think you're going to even be able to see real time AI generated interface in the next year or two. So my prediction is this has been the era of enterprise, even ChatGPT breakout success. I would predict that most of revenue is going to be going to Codex. That's my. I might be wrong, but just given how much money is going to cloud and I think in the next two years you're going to see a massive revolution in consumer and I think you're going to need a couple of companies to lead the way. I think we need reference points. I mean even me saying the chat bots, not the interface people probably asking well what is. And someone needs to be the one to do that. I mean we're going to try to do our part. I'm not sure Airbnb will be the company to blaze the trail, but I think someone has to. I think in another era it would have been Apple, like the Steve Jobs era. Apple would have done that. Maybe Apple will do that, but they would have been typically the company that would have done that. Yeah. Are you worried?

They didn't do a sequel. And then another one. Another one. They went and found something else. Let's put a plane through a tunnel or fly a, you know, a hot air balloon upside down or something. Get a blimp. Get a blimp on Airbnb. That I can go on a sky cruise. Sleeping in a blimp. Yeah. So that would be. That would be a. That would be a very good idea. Maybe we can talk about. I'd love that Ship it podcast. Yeah. I don't know how long it takes to get to. Yeah, la. To San Francisco, if it takes me two days, three days. But I have a beautiful view. Would you guys do that? I would 100% do that. I'd be good advertising for us and you. So we say things like this all the time where we're like, oh, yeah, we'll definitely do something. And oftentimes it's hard to schedule. But we have been talking about blimps for, like, over a year. We know we can broadcast. We've been having to happen with a blimp. We've been having guests call in from their jets with Starlink, and the connection is perfect. So much so that people in our chat sometimes don't know that the person's on a plane. Okay, you're right here. First, Airbnb and TBPN are going to work together on a blimp partnership. You guys are going to broadcast across the country on a blimp. I love it. Everybody's going to be a part of that. Yeah. I want to make this work. Let's, let's, let's. Let's figure it out. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for coming. Have a great weekend.

Why don't we kick it off with just, you know, an Update on how 2026 is going, how the business is going, what's new in your world? Yeah, I mean, things are really good. We've accelerated growth for the first time since the pandemic. We grew 10% last year in revenue and this quarter we announced that revenue was 18%. So from 10 to 18%, which is a pretty big acceleration in marketplaces are really, really hard. Right. Like it's kind of like gravity. Once a marketplace at our size doing around $100 billion in GR a year start to come down, it's really hard to tip that curve. So this has been a pretty big feat for the team to be able to do it. So how do you do it? You know, it's kind of funny, a number of years ago we, so I noticed that, you know, as we got bigger we started losing a little bit startup intensity, that startup energy. And I asked myself like, how can we get that energy back? And we basically took a very small team. We named the team Project Y. The name doesn't really matter, but it basically I took a very small team of people and we said we're going to focus on a very, very small service area. And we decided to focus on conversion rate. The guest journey and I basically tried to work with a team like as if we were at Rall Street. Rall street was the apartment that Joanie and I started. And I said we're going to act like a startup. And the team just grinded really, really hard. We weren't working like a big company. We were very small team, grinding really hard, focusing on obsessing over the customer experience, really looking the data and we really got a lot of points on the board. Then we really started taking these pods and we really started working with the teams, trying to coach them how we worked in the early days. And I just think the pace increase, the intensity increase. We really like tried to bring in like world class people onto the team. They got very, very focused. We tried to get all the management and bureaucracy out of their way and it's been a couple of years and in fact we're doing this last year. But one of the things is, as you know, financial results are lagging indicators, especially when you're a big company. So it takes sometimes a while to get the financial numbers to reflect what's happening inside the company. But I feel like we're a startup again more than ever before, like where we feel much younger and smaller than earlier. And I think with AI that would be. The other thing is 60% of our code is now written by AI, which is twice our benchmark of our competitors and peers. And it's really, really helping us, I think, is a huge boon to us. I don't know if it's helped the OTAs, but it's helped us with customer service. The cost per customer Service tickets down 10%, 40%. People who contact me, the AI solves the problem for them and we brought it through the entire journey. So everything is really accelerating. On the. On the special team that went in to optimize conversion rate, I imagine you have folks internally whose job was basically the customer journey already. Then you bring in your special team and is there some sort of culture clash there? Like, how do you set people up for success? To not get too political in that environment, actually see it as an opportunity for a win, Some fresh eyes, some fresh ideas. What is required to actually have success? Because I think a lot of big companies that bring in McKinsey and they put together a big deck and everyone freaks out and thinks they're getting fired. And maybe some of the good ideas are surfaced, but it never really goes through. So what do you have to communicate to the team that is receiving information from this new KWAI team? Yeah, so it's a great thing. I mean, really what I'm talking about has played out over, like, really five years. And the term founder mode, what it really meant that Paul Graham wrote was about me, like, skipping layers of management and going into the details with teams. And instead of trying, I mean, here's my advice. If you're a CEO or a leader of a company that's big, don't try to change the whole company. Try to change a corner of the company. It's kind of like, don't renovate the whole house. Pick like one room and make it perfect and then go room to room. So I really told teams, like, hey, like, I actually, I actually didn't replace the team. I took the team that was already working. I like, handpicked some people on the team, but I really just taught them the pace. And I would review work very regularly. So I'd sometimes review the work weekly or even daily to just teach them a level of intensity, a level of perfection. And it was unfamiliar and uncomfortable. And I will tell you that not everyone liked it. And some people didn't stick around the company because they didn't like that way of working. And. But those who stuck around and the vast majority did, they realize, wow, actually when the CEO is involved, it's actually easier, there's less bureaucracy. I try to make the work better and I try to clear all obstacles. And so I basically did that group by group. And the great thing is I was in massive number of details, reviewing everything for years, but eventually it's like muscle memory. It's like, I know an instructor or a coach, you have to teach them, but once they learn that and they have the muscle memory like a golf swing, you can step back and now it's muscle memory. So now I don't have to be in all these details, all these teams, but I would.

Trend it can be a little crowded and to try to claim out your own space. And I would say there's so much of the US economy that AI hasn't yet touched. Yeah. On that note, how are you talking to, or how would you talk to designers or RISD students about applying non technical skill sets or non AI disciplines, non computer science backgrounds to consumer. The reason I ask it because I feel like there's a lot of pushback against AI in design communities in colleges right now. Broadly, AI is not particularly popular and there's a lot of fear of job loss. But at the same time, I'm sure the tools have changed throughout the history and I feel like you believe that there's incredible opportunity. But, but I'm worried that some people are not jumping on that opportunity because they have hesitations about various oh well, does this displace this tool or how was this made or is this the right tool for the job? Should I even be using this? Yeah, I'm really worried that an entire generation of designers, artists and creative people are going to decide to kind of sit out AI. And I think it's the biggest opportunity for creative people in my lifetime. By the way, this is not the first time designers were late. We, we creatives and designers were really late to the Internet and web. So going back 30, 35 years, most of the prestigious designers did not get into so called web design. Web design was considered a lower tier, lower status design and they stayed with print, all the established people. And so they did not really chase design. When what ended up happening was because you had a lot of these really excellent designers that did not go into web design. I think what happened was a lot of, there were a lot of good people that became web designers, but I think there became a gap between web design and engineering. You had people that, you know, maybe didn't have the full, full design skillset. And what happened was this function emerged called product management. Product management, I'm not arguing against we have product manager, it's very important. But in industrial design there's no product managers. For the most part they're industrial designers. In architecture, the architect is the product manager. And so I think what ended up happening in web design designs are very, very narrow. There is a void. Product managers filled that void. I'm not arguing against that model, but I think if designers sit out, we're going to see as engineers and product managers designing for them. And I think the counterpoint is designers can be engineers and product people for intensive purposes. Said differently, if I were starting Airbnb Today I'd be vibe coding and cloud code and I'm trying to do it now. I'm doing it for fun. I'm not really going to be doing anything productive Airbnb, but if I was 26, I would have thought of myself as a technical person. I think all designers should think of themselves as product people and as, you know, front end engineers, if anything. And so I think this is a boon. I don't think that the future of of the Internet has to be all text based. I think it can be very visual. I think the photo and video generation models allow you to design incredibly rich interfaces. And this is I think the best time in the world for designers and creative people to get involved and I think they're just a little bit afraid and I whatever we can do to enlist them to just get their hands dirty. Many designers are. I just think more should get involved and not begin getting out of typical wireframes. Just start coding. Do you think so? Assuming we solve this problem,

Swing, you can step back. And now it's muscle memory. So now I don't have to be in all these details, all these teams. But I would just say a couple things. People listening. Like great leadership is presence, not absence. I think a generation of management's consulting or management school management teaching taught us that CEOs should trust their people and get out of the way. And I don't think trust and get out of the way are the same thing. Again, I think leadership is presence. And if you, if you, you should actually be partnering with your people, you should be on the field with them. If you're a, if you're a cavalry general, you should be on a horse, you should be on the battlefield. You're not like you're not overseas somewhere else just writing out blueprints. You got to be on the field with them and you got to be leading from example. I think leadership from the front, not from the back. And so these are just some of the things we do. And I think AI is going to create like the equivalent of an AI founder mode, which is now you got to be even more hands on. And I don't think in the era of AI there should be any pure people managers because you're so close to the details, to the data that everyone has the opportunity to be hands on. And it's hard to imagine only managing people and not agents. So I think this hands on approach is for everyone inside of a company. Jordy, please, do you think a lot about.

Really big market. So I think for Airbnb, we're looking at really expanding to a lot of different categories, and I think that's where most of the growth is going to be in the future. Do billboards in San Francisco work on you going back to marketing? It's one of these old things where like, yes, I completely agree with you. Like, the CMO who did the first billboard campaign back in the 50s, probably printed legend, you know, books written about them. Well, the billboard campaign that worked for the last couple years was just buying so many billboards that people are like, wait, how did this company buy so many billboards? Yeah. And so I'm wondering, is your, is your thesis on marketing that these things go in cycles? And yes, we might be out of the influencer marketing meta right now, but it's going to come back in five, 10 years. Who knows that's possible? Or is it rise and fall and then never again? I think these channels, though, they don't go away. They just stop being like, if you do this thing, you're going to grow like crazy. You still need to do that thing, but it's no longer an art. Okay. Yeah. What do you think? You guys are okay. So. So one thing I have to acknowledge. Yeah. Is I think all of us advertising works better on us than we admit. Yep. I honestly, I, we, we spent a lot on like all these ads and I kind of think to myself, do these really influence people? Like, and if they do, and if they didn't, we wouldn't be spending like a billion dollars on advertising. So I want to admit that advertising does influence us more than we realize. There's, I think a lot of studies that show, like, oh, that doesn't change my mind, but you see something seven times in a. Probably even if you don't want to, might start believing it. Yep. So clearly it works. I do think, though, the ROI of new ideas works a lot better. Just for example, we spent a lot of advertising, but the most popular marketing we've ever done is like, when the Barbie movie came out, we took a house in Malibu. We turned the Barbie Malibu Dreamhouse, and it was like new. And the whole Internet talked about it. And the ROI of that was better than any ad we've ever done. Right. We've done things like that. So I do think doing kind of crazy, slightly unhinged things that people notice, like, I mean, you guys are successful because you're different. Right. I think, I think being different is the key to marketing. And so if you have a billboard, people are probably influenced, but if you. If it looks different than another billboard, it's going to work. So I think the key to marketing is to be different because you got to stand out. Yeah, Yeah.

And we want to be agentic. But I think the key is most of Airbnb is not the app that you use. It's mostly the offline experience, it's the operation. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. The imessage example is good. It's even, maybe even going deeper into like old SMS because iMessage has hydrated so many things with the reactions and you paste a link and it hydrates it and it's becoming more of a visual tool. But it is a long road. Question. One of the things. Yeah, well, before you say it, one of the things is the last time I was on, I did make a comment and I'll make it again. Almost every company is enterprise company and the last stat I think I said on TVPM was like three months ago and stats haven't changed. I think it was 175 companies in a YC batch and I think 16 were consumer. That trend hasn't changed. Almost everyone is going into coding, almost everyone's going to enterprise. I think that's great. My whole point though is that the consumer experience hasn't fundamentally changed that much beyond a chatbot. And I think the consumer is a massive opportunity for AI and I think it's going to need to be a richer user interface. I think people that want to do more things, they want it to be. I mean, the modern AI today is text, photos and buttons, mostly in some videos. And I think there is a more breakthrough visual paradigm that can be much more immersive. And with the new image and video generation models, you could do something so much more immersive. So the exact example you gave a. Trying to book a hotel, yeah, you can do it on chatbot, but there's probably some more breakthrough way to imagine that, to visualize it, to see the neighborhood, to see the map, to be able to talk to it, to understand where it is, to be able to compare photos, different hotels. There is something, I think, richer on the horizon. Yeah, that was. I was, I was surprised that there.

Get their hands dirty. Many designers are. I just think more should get involved and not begin and getting out of typical wireframes. Just start coding. Do you think? So? Assuming we solve this problem of not enough, you know, creative people working in consumer. We build, you know, we as a society build cool new consumer products and experiences and apps. There's something that deserves to be at the top of the App Store has distribution and the acquisition of customers and users changed structurally. You were very good at SEO and Google and there was a referral program. Do those patterns still work? Are they broken? Is there a new playbook that needs to be rolled out for anyone who has something that's great, but they need to get it in the hands of consumers broadly, I think we need new patterns. This is a funny saying. I think the highest turnover job of any executive at Silicon Valley might be the cmo. I don't know for sure, but like, you know, you don't see a lot of turnover CFOs, you don't see a lot of turnovers of CTOs. Yeah, but like Amazon was famously. And I don't know if part of my theory is that like what works in marketing changes every few years and you have to be adaptable in your old playbook gets outdated. So marketing is unfortunately one of the hardest functions. I have a huge amount of respect for people marketing because once something works, it almost becomes stale because. Because then everyone does it. And so like influencer marketing was really successful until everyone did it. And then people kind of tune it out. It's this thing called banner blindness. Banner blindness is after you see something over and over, you tend to be blind to it, and so you need a new tactic. So I think that. A couple thoughts. Number one, I think that just like we need new interface design, new creative experiential approaches, we also need new types of marketing. I don't know off the top of my head what that is. It's probably something we haven't done before. I mean, Joe and I, we did like bizarre things. Like we sold collectible cereal boxes. And we, like when social media was new, we were all over social media. And when, when there were newspapers, we would hunt down reporters and like, try to get them to write about us. But people ask me, how do we get users? I'm like, all the tactics from 2008 aren't relevant anymore. So you got to be relevant and you got to find new tactics. The second thing I'd say though is you're right, the distribution is mature. When we started Airbnb the App Store was young. In fact the Internet was still young. I mean we could just, you could launch a website and just ride the growth of the Internet and it's hard. The Internet is not growing like it did before. In other words people were coming onto the Internet and hundreds of millions a year new users. So I do think distribution for consumers mature at the same time the top apps in the app store or new apps they're mostly chat bots. So what that tells you if you do something truly breakthrough and revolutionary consumers will still probably find it. And so that's I think, I think the two principles are do something so revolutionary consumers will find you and number two you're going to have to find your own new tactics and you know anything that is standard is probably stale. Well said. Look, yeah looking out into the future you've ridden the growth of the short term rental market. You dominate.

Yeah, I'm incredibly overwhelmed with slacks. Emails, you know, DMs on every platform. LinkedIn, DMS, Instagram, DMS x DMs, all the different messaging apps. And I was thinking, how cool would it be if there was a service where you connected all your inboxes to and then every day they would print out all of the messages and then bring them to you and you could put like a box, you could put a box outside of your house and they would just put them in there. And then at a specific time, you know, maybe in a roughly like two hour window, you could go out and grab all the printed out messages and sort of, sort of like leaf through them, decide what you need to respond to. You would, potentially, because you're only getting messages once a day, you would probably be a lot more intentional about what you wrote back and forth. Right. And I think that could be sort of the opposite of Earth Class mail, those virtual mailboxes, because they'll take your physical mail. No, but I want everything. I want everything. You want everything in the print. I want to put a box outside of my house that people put. And I think there's something there. Yeah. Trump, I mean, Trump literally does this. He does that, right? Yeah. He gets emails printed out and then he'll write with a big marker his response and then his assistant will scan it and then email it back. Yeah. More, more on. Sea Fry says a napkin is more available than envelope. Very true. Often the best is often the best. Business meetings were not scheduled as a business meeting. So there aren't envelopes around. There's no envelopes around, but there's plenty of napkins. Yeah. Also, I mean, you're saying napkins are smaller, but if you're at a restaurant and you have like a fabric napkin. Yeah. And you want to be big, those can be pretty big. So you're. But I feel like it's bad form to be at a restaurant. Like, you're not supposed to ruin the napkin. Or do you carry a pen that has washable ink? Do you have the crayons for the kids? Right. People are. The chat is saying. They don't ask you. The chat is saying, I could call my service the United States Post Office. Yeah. That's a good name. Thank you. Alex. That's a great name. That's sort of like the San Francisco Artificial Intelligence Company or something like that. Or the browser company of New York. It would be inspired by that. Yeah. I think that even with the crayons, he used his crayon closed fisted grip right on the tablecloth. Tablecloth. Okay. Yeah. I feel like if you're given crayons, you are expected to maintain that the child uses the crayons only on the children's menu, which is typically made out of paper. Very disposable. If you see the child using the crayons on a cloth napkin, you are expected, as a patron, to intervene. Jackson says digitize this service and call it email. There we go. We gotta get. We got to establish the mailbox first. We got an idea, but then we can go there. But I like where you're going.

He was a fan of Nike's early 2000s era watch lineup. Have you ever seen these before, Jordy? I have. I have. I have not. I've never seen one in person. Never seen one in person. Where's my other headphone? There we go. Yeah. This. Has this design aesthetic come back yet? I feel like there's enough posts about it at some point. I feel like a tech startup is gonna really run with it on some of these. Someone will do it. I like the kind of soft lines. Yeah. Avi from Friend was sort of doing that with the material that went into the Friend pendant. But he was, he was talking to Paul Graham about, like, how do you differentiate from Apple? Like, if you launch a product like this, it does stand out from an Apple watch, certainly aesthetically. And so you at least create some, like, distance that's maybe defensible. Even if they, even if they come out with a competitive product, it's not. If you become iconic with this design or, or similarly bizarre design, you don't stand as much chance of getting commoditized. Ryan Cohen's in the Financial Times. People have been processing his bid for GameStop's.

You know, it's kind of funny, a number of years ago we, so I noticed that, you know, as we got bigger we started losing a little bit startup intensity, that startup energy. And I asked myself like, how can we get that energy back? And we basically took a very small team. We named the team Project Y. The name doesn't really matter, but basically I took a very small team of people and we said we're going to focus on a very, very small service area. And we decided to focus on conversion rate. The guest journey and I basically tried to work with a team like as if we were at Rao Street, Rouse street was the apartment that Joan and I started. And I said we're going to act like a startup. And the team just grinded really, really hard. We weren't working like a big company, we were very small team, grinding really hard, focusing on obsessing over the customer experience, really looking the data and we really got a lot of points in the board. And then we really started taking these pods and we really started working with the teams, trying to coach them how we worked in the early days and I just think the pace increase, the intensity increase. We really like tried to bring in like world class people onto the team. They got very, very focused. We tried to get all the management and bureaucracy out of their way and it's been a couple of years and in fact we're doing this last year. But one of the things is, as you know, financial results are lagging indicators, especially when you're a big company. So it takes sometimes a while to get the financial numbers to reflect what's happening inside the company. But I feel like we're a startup again more than ever before, like where we feel much younger and smaller than earlier. And I think with AI that would be other thing is 60% of our code is now written by AI, which is twice our benchmark of our competitors and peers. And it's really, really helping us, I think is a huge boon to us. I don't know if it's helped the OTAs, but it's helped us with customer service. The cost per customer service, tickets down 10%, 40%. People who contact me, the AI solves the problem for them and we brought it through the entire journey. So everything is really accelerating. On the, on the special team that went in to optimize conversion rate, I imagine you have folks internally whose job was basically the customer journey already. Then you bring in your special team and is there some sort of culture clash there? Like how do you set people up for success to not get too political in that environment. Actually see it as an opportunity for a win. Some fresh eyes, some fresh ideas. What is required to actually have success? Because I think a lot of big companies that bring in McKinsey and they put together a big deck and everyone freaks out and thinks they're getting fired. And maybe some of the good ideas are surfaced, but it never really goes through. So what do you have to communicate to the team that is receiving information from this new Kwai team? Yeah, so it's a great thing. I mean, really what I'm talking about has played out over like really five years. And the term founder mode, what it really meant that Paul Graham wrote was about me, like skipping layers of management and going into the details with teams. And instead of trying, I mean, here's my advice. If you're a CEO or a leader of a company that's big, don't try to change the whole company, try to change a corner of the company. It's kind of like, don't renovate the whole house. Pick like one room and make it perfect and then go room to room. So I really told teams, like, hey, like, I actually didn't replace the team. I took the team that was already working. I like handpicked some people on the team, but I really just taught them the pace. And I would review work very regularly. So I'd sometimes review the work weekly or even daily to just teach them a level of intensity, a level of perfection. And it was unfamiliar and uncomfortable. And I will tell you that not everyone liked it. And some people didn't stick around the company because they didn't like that way of working. But those who stuck around and the vast majority did, they realize, wow, actually when the CEO is involved, it's actually easier. There's less bureaucracy. I try to make the work better and I try to clear all obstacles. And so I basically did that group by group. And the great thing is, like I was in massive number of details, reviewing everything for years. But eventually it's like muscle memory. It's like I know an instructor or a coach, you have to teach them. But once they learn that and they have the muscle memory like a golf swing, you can step back and now it's muscle memory. So now I don't have to be in all these details, all these teams. But I would just say a couple things. People listening, like, great leadership is presence, not absence. I think a generation of management consulting or management school management teaching taught us that CEOs should trust their people and get out of the way And I don't think trust and get out of the way of the same thing. Again, I think leadership is presence and if you, if you, you should actually be partnering with your people, you should be on the field with them. If you're a, if you're a cavalry general, you should be on a horse, you should be on the battlefield. You're not like you're not overseas somewhere else just writing out blueprints. You got to be on the field with them and you've got to be leading from example. I think leadership from the front, not from the back. And so these are just some of the things we do. And I think AI is going to create like the equivalent of an AI founder mode, which is now you got to be even more hands on. And I don't think in the era of AI there should be any pure people managers because you're so close to the details, to the data that everyone has the opportunity to be hands on. And it's hard to imagine only managing people and not agents. So I think this hands on approach is for everyone inside of a company. How did Jordy please do you think.

It was. It was a blast. It was a blast. But you were doing a lot of other investing at the time. What else stands out from your investing career? Yeah, well, I've been. But can I first say, like, I have had a fantastic week. Can I tell you about the week that we're having? Yeah, I think it's my best week in venture. Okay. And I've been doing this for 12 years. Yeah. So let me. Let me paint the picture. Right, so Wednesday. Yeah. Astranis raises a 450 million Series E. This was the first check I wrote after I left Andreessen Horowitz. That's right. Very first check I wrote led the seed round. I love introducing the A16Z, which did the Series A. And they've also done subsequent rounds. Yeah. So that was on Wednesday morning. Yeah. That was amazing. Right? Yeah. You know, $2.8 billion valuation. And then on Thursday, of course, I launched my new fund. Fund five. Right. And so I've got 300 million under management. Yes. 10. 10 years and change. Yeah. At this point, so another 50 million. I just raised $50 million funds. And we could talk about that in a sec. And then I'm like, waking up yesterday morning and I'm, like, getting all my Tweets and my LinkedIn posts together for the launch at like 6am and something pops up in my feed and my emails. It's like one of my companies just got acquired. I'm like, okay, well, I gotta take a look at this. What happened? Well, Pathai got acquired by Roche for a billion dollars. There we go. That's incredible. And I have two founders that have had kids this week, babies this week. 6. It is just tons of good stuff. Best week ever, guys. Yeah.

The revenue growth charts. So we can go through some of the folks. Are you more of a back of the envelope guy or a napkin math guy? Oh, that's interesting. I have a napkin here from Wonderco from the event I brought in. Would you look at that little souvenir? I like. I like a napkin. I like a napkin. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, napkin math is insane. It's extremely hard to write on a napkin. It's way easier to write on the back of an envelope. Yeah. You got a lot of big envelope. You can get an envelope that's eight and a half, but it's. It's effectively an envelope is sophisticated spreadsheet. An envelope is. Is. Is kind of a core business utility. Yeah. Napkins can be used for anything. If you're in napkin math, you got to pivot. I will say I'm much more of a napkin math guy. I can't. I mean, just, Just, Just the phrase spiritually. Spiritually and the phrase that I pull. But if I can't get excited about an opportunity based on what. What can fit on a napkin, then I'm never gonna get excited about it. Right. There's usually like. So you think a napkin is definitionally smaller. It's a less amount of math. It's a lesser vehicle than an envelope. Yeah. Cause a big envelope you could do a full spreadsheet on. Totally. You could write out comps and have multiple cells. No. So in practice, I'm a napkin math guy, but if something was really serious, I would probably trip. Pull out the envelope. Yeah. We've been doing too much napkin math around here. Time to pull out the big guns. Let's get out the envelope. Speaking of envelopes, so this morning I was telling Tyler.