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Like, we don't know how this will all play out. And I think the other sentiment seeing is that there's this idea of let's throw everything out, no SaaS at all. And I think that's an option, but I think you can do that. And then you start inventing stuff back from the first principles, and you maybe end up in the same spot again. And I think that's what we've seen in our space is like, everyone's running their agent, and now they have 10 agents running. So then they put them on a Kanban board, which linear has. And then it's like, oh, now I invented the agent orchestration. Like, no, you invented the Kanban board, which has been, like, around for, like, 30 years, but you just put the agents on the Kanban board. So, like, kudos to connecting those two topics. But, like, it's not like that. Some things don't need to be reinvented. Like, some things can still work, but, like, if you just throw everything out, you kind of like, start from the beginning, and then I think it's a long journey to figure everything out again. Yeah, I got to.

Gives Tesla an edge kind of every day of the week. A lot of people have been speculating about demotivation from space x liquidity as the company goes out at 1.5, maybe $2 trillion valuation. There's a lot of engineers who are great, they're about to have a lot of liquidity and maybe they will decide to retire, is basically the thesis. But we've sort of run this experiment with Tesla. What was it like post ipo? Do you have a read on, on how the culture. Did everyone remain interested in the mission or were there some people that actually did choose to sort of step back? Yeah, I think the majority of people that were there for the mission, they're mission oriented and in size of their bank account over time grew, but it really didn't matter to them. They were showing up every day to solve, just to solve the next thing that was in the way. There were some people that cashed out along the way, but they were kind of the minority. Sure. And one of the things that Elon did was something that I had done in each one of my startups, and a lot of entrepreneurs do, which is you kind of starve the balance sheet. You raise only as much capital as you need because the first principle is you don't want your company to go soft. And when people see a big number on the balance sheet, you're not close to death. And people aren't like really, really moving as fast as they can, aren't as motivated. So even after we were public, we operated Tesla on a quarter's worth of cash, believe it or not. Whoa. And I kept saying to Elon, like, I would like a little breathing room. He's like, no, no, like, we got it. Like, we got to think about this. Like, when we're young entrepreneurs, like, if you're close, if you're two steps from death, you operate differently. So. But I was like, man, we have a quarter's worth of cash, but we have 70 days of payables. That means we have less than three weeks of cash. Like, this is tight. But that kept everybody sharp. And what we started to worry about was posts like Model 3 and Model Y, when we actually started to generate cash on the balance sheet. Like, how we could, how we could make sure the company stayed Sharp. And SpaceX has had this advantage of that for a long time. And Gwen and Elon are going to have to manage this now post ipo. But my sense is most people are there for the. The experience of working in a musk company is that you are literally on the biggest challenge you've ever faced in your life with the best people. And you are, you're doing the best work of your life. And so that's what keeps most people engaged. It is not the balance in their bank account. How do people stay engaged? And so laser focused.

But for us, that'll be a side project. What global superstar has embraced AI music the most? And is it Meek Mill the most? Oh, I don't know. There's. There's. Because you kind of have to go on like a villain arc. Soldier boy didn't like you. Like, there's. There we again. Last time we were here, I was telling you, somebody I know in the music industry is like, every artist is using the suno. Every artist thinks it's amazing. Nobody wants to talk about it yet because they're kind of scared of the reaction from the world and the creative industry and all this stuff. And so it feels like the first one or two people to go in a huge way will get some pushback and then over time, it just is normal. I think it's slowly changing. I don't want to out anyone, but this was. This is a quote that is attributed to me, but it's actually not mine. I'm not this clever of everything that you just said. Ascribing. This is the. The GLP1 of music. It's like everyone's on it and no one wants to talk about it. And I think these things just take time. So I'm not. I'm not going to. I'm not going to out anyone just yet, but it feels like things are changing. Final question from the chat.

Behind in autonomy. They're behind for. Even from a feature standpoint with a Tesla or byd. I see these electric cars out of China where it's like, it has 1500 horsepower, it's as big as a Suburban and it drives itself. And then you're like. And it'll cost $35,000. That is impossible. How can we possibly compete with that? So, yeah. What should American automakers broadly do? Well, this is a real, this is a real challenge that I'm a part of because I'm on the board of GM now trying to help them navigate this. And so like when I walk around the streets of Tel Aviv or Mexico City or Paris, you see all the BYD's. It's your point. These are not crappy cars. These are really good cars and at a really good price point. They're at that price point because the government subsidizes the heck out of that business. In China you get free factories, free labor, free parts, basically, so you can sell stuff super cheap. But that is a real. What, what is there, to your knowledge, what is the long term thinking there? Is it effectively like an employment program where they just want or are they looking at it like cac where they're like, we're lose money for a decade, then we're going to make it money for both. Or like what, what are the kind of pillars, do you think, of their strategy overall? It's a combination of both of what you guys just said. So on your point, Jordy, it is the way that you keep a single party system in power is you provide jobs. Job growth is the one metric that every level of government gets bonused on there. Can you imagine the American government? Everybody gets a bonus that doubles their base salary. And that one metric is GDP growth. That's what you have in China. They start with that framework and they say we got to provide jobs. The way we're going to provide jobs is every five years we're going to announce five industries that we're going to enter and dominate. Hmm. And. And the second, well, the third pillar of that is then that they subsidize 100 market entrants to come in and then they let evolutionary biology take, take its place and may the best person win. And so they get down to the top three or five competitors that are winning. So in this case, it's like BYD Geely neo. And they say to those competitors, now we're to consolidate all of the capacity that we've created with these 100 companies under U3. You get it for free. And your job now is to export and dominate these markets. So they've gotten subsidies to get started, subsidies to operate, and now they're getting capacity for free. And they've proven themselves as the winners in a hyper competitive market. And now they go enter the rest of the world where the competitors are soft. And, and that's their formula. And they run this formula across all kinds of industries. They run it in solar panels, they run it in TVs, they've run it in bicycles, they've run it in electric cars. And. And it's a very powerful flywheel they create. But those are the four pillars, the.

But they were kind of the minority. Sure. And one of the things that Elon did was something that I had done in each one of my startups, and a lot of entrepreneurs do, which is you kind of starve the balance sheet. You raise only as much capital as you need, because the first principle is you don't want your company to go soft. And when people see a big number on the balance sheet, you're not close to death. And people aren't, like, really, really moving as fast as they can, aren't as motivated. So even after we were public, we operated Tesla on a quarter's worth of cash, believe it or not. Whoa. And I kept saying to Elon, like, I would like a little breathing room. He's like, no, no. Like, we got it. Like, we got to think about this. Like, when we're young entrepreneurs, like, if you're close, if you're two steps from death, you operate differently. So. But I was like, man, we have a quarter's worth of cash, but we have 70 days of payables. That means we have less than three weeks of cash. Like, this is tight. But that kept everybody sharp. And what we started to worry about was posts like Model 3 and Model Y, when we actually started to generate cash on the balance sheet, like, how we could. How we could make sure the company stayed Sharp. And SpaceX has had this advantage of that for a long time. And Gwen and Elon are going to have to manage this now post ipo. But my sense is most people are there for the. The experience of working in a musk company is that you are literally on the biggest challenge you've ever faced in your life with the best people. And you are. You're doing the best work of your life. And so that's what keeps most people engaged. It is not the balance in their bank account.

That software mentality gives Tesla an edge kind of every day of the week. A lot of people have been speculating about demotivation from SpaceX liquidity as the company goes out at a 1.5, maybe $2 trillion valuation. There's a lot of engineers who are great, they're about to have a lot of liquidity and maybe they will decide to retire is basically the thesis. But we've sort of run this experiment with Tesla. What was it like post ipo? Do you have a read on on how the culture changed? Did everyone remain interested in the mission or were there some people that actually did choose to sort of step step back? Yeah, I think the majority of people that were there for the mission, they're mission oriented and in size of their bank account over time grew but it really didn't matter. Yeah. To them they were showing up every day to solve just to solve the next thing that was in the way. There were some people that cashed out along the way, but they were kind of the minority. Sure. And one of the things that Elon did.

And the legislation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. What other industries have been through this type of pivotal moment? And where should we be drawing analogies or where should we avoid drawing analogies? People have said social media is the new cigarettes. Jordi was making a point about the warning labels on cigarettes. It feels like that might not be the actual best analogy. I was talking to Tyler on our team about the risks associated with driving a motorcycle. And I was making the point that there's an instruction manual that you buy that you get with a motorcycle that puts a lot of the risk on you if you choose to transport yourself. This really progresses like precedent it sets is like, okay, fast food companies shouldn't be able to use bright colors in their logo. There's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of different things. Musicians shouldn't be able to play hooks that are just too catchy maybe. I don't know. Yeah, but where do you think the best analogies are? I'm not a fan of analogies between online and offline activities. And in particular, I don't like the analogy to tobacco. And let me make clear why. And I think that'll start to enlighten where the risks and opportunities are. Tobacco, we would generally say there are no health benefits to consuming tobacco. Nobody is healthier because of that. It's just either neutral or negative. But social media consumption has many social benefits. There are many communities that are thriving online and who are, I think, justifiably concerned that their benefits are at risk in this litigation without them even having a say in it. So unlike tobacco, social media is a mix of potentially very helpful things and things that could potentially be harmful for some of its consumers. And those kinds of mixed uses technology that have both benefits and potential detriments are really, I think, a better analogy than tobacco. And I don't know that we have great circumstances where we can point to where mass tort litigation has targeted and potentially removed from the industry these mixed use scenarios. And in the end, the things that people are being addicted to or that are allegedly causing harm are people talking to each other. And that kind of speech related theme is unlike almost any physical product that we might draw an analogy to. Yeah, it's a fascinating.

So that's right. Will Menidis is giving some more context around anti AI backlash. He says in case you're skeptical that anti AI backlash will become a central issue in the next election cycle, Sanders just introduced a bill to halt all new data center construction and require the federal government to review and approve AI products before release. Interestingly, this idea of an AI fda, the first time I heard about this concept was on the all in podcast. I believe Chamath Polihopitiya was making the point that an AI FDA was something worth considering. I think he's evolved his position, but it was something that, you know, the first time you learn about, like the possibility of a fast takeoff, the possibility of AI doom. It seems really rational to say, well, let's review everything beforehand. But then there's natural effects and then there's limitations to the models and we can't even do a puzzle on rkgi. So maybe there's a little bit more work to be done. Maybe there's a few more data centers to build before we actually get good things out of these models. Noah Smith wrote a piece that I think is relevant to the data center moratorium, which is. AI has the worst sales pitch I've ever seen. It's rough. His quote. Our product will make you economically useless and possibly kill you. He says it's not a value proposition. AI leaders need to change their public messaging and fast. We don't need to read through all this, but I need to read this quote. He opens this quote. Hi, do you have a moment? I'm from the Cursed Microwave Company. Our product is much better than a traditional microwave. Not only can it automatically and perfectly cook all your food, it also microwaves your whole body. So you and your family are paralyzed and unable to work ever again. Don't worry, though, because when everyone has a cursed microwave, our society will probably implement Universal Basic Income and you and your children can just go on welfare. Oh, by the way, we estimate that there's a 2 to 25% chance that our microwaves will put so much radiation, will put out so much radiation that they destroy the entire human race. If a door to door salesman came and gave me this pitch, I would gently see him out the door and then quickly call the FBI. But this is only a modestly exaggerated version of the pitch that the big AI labs, OpenAI and Anthropic are making to the world about their technology. And I completely agree with this. It's very important that AI lab leaders focus on the actual tangible benefits of the technology. Right Now I think there's this, you keep identifying this disconnect between like, people are afraid of AI and there's so much fear based marketing. But then like every single person, like a billion people are just using ChatGPT to like, get answers and, and every person you talk to, no matter how they can, they can tell you for 20 minutes, lay out a very coherent, like, cogent thesis of AI doom, what might happen. Terminators, they can take you on this very reasonable scenario and then five minutes later the topics changes and they'll tell you how they use ChatGPT to like, you know, plan their vacation or something like that. And this disconnect just like cannot last. Yeah, yeah. I wrote on January 9. The phrase techlash was originally coined by Adrian Wooldridge and the Economist in 2013. He correctly predicted that the big developments of 2014 will be the growing peasants revolt against the sovereigns of cyberspace. The silicon elite will cease to be regarded as geeks who happen to be filthy rich and become filthy rich people who happen to be geeks. Over the coming years, the world experienced the Cambridge Analytica scandal, fear around the mental health impacts of social media on young people, and growing concerns around monopoly power in our digital world. The Internet and the platforms that dominate it began to test the core foundations of our country and the free world. Privacy, democracy, censorship, and more. The second tech clash has begun, this time because the average American believes that technology, specifically AI, is now a threat to their very way of life, starting at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Americans have heard the data centers use a lot of water. They heard their power bill is probably gonna go up because of it, or already have. They've seen the movie Terminator and have imagined how that might go from science fiction to reality. Watch Terminator. You still haven't seen it, right? No, I have seen Terminator. You have? Have you seen Terminator 2? Probably not. You're killing me, John. It's enough to ask me to finish one movie. Now you're like, oh, you gotta see two, you gotta see two. Two. Two is the best one, I think. But the end of Terminator, it's a good ending. The humans win. We beat the robot.

Anyway, the reactions to The Meta and YouTube trial continue. Ariel Gibner says, this is disgusting. And I can't wait for the appeals. The precedent set by YouTube being liable for screen time addiction is kind of scary. Treating algorithms like a defective product opens the door to endless lawsuits over addictive tech. What's next? Books? Video games? Junk food? I mean, video games, we gotta do something about those things are too. Too fun. Too fun. Truly. We gotta make them. Except. Except you. You ascended. You beat your addiction. Yeah, I definitely did. You don't. You don't game anymore. You actually did. I mean, it might be one of those things, like you're still addictive, addicted. You just might have been playing a game earlier this week. Got sneaky little 45 minutes. Really? Yeah. No, yeah, it was good. Claire Obscura. I'm gonna go. I'm free. You gotta pull me out. I'm addicted now. I'm gonna go look back in our text and see, like, when did it take you 45 minutes to respond onto something? Maybe it was like, Tuesday night. Yeah. I'm going to be coming after Eric Jorgensen for the Book of Elon, because that just came out and Eric did a fantastic job. Yes. And I think it's highly addictive. We got it. Can we sue this lawyer? Because this is one of the most interesting cases and I actually can't pull myself away from it. And I feel like I'm just going to spend hours and hours reading, obsessing over about this lawsuit filings. Yeah. And I don't know, it's depressing. It's making me sad thinking about these tech companies having to pay fines. And it's just ruining my mood entirely. And it was like, you can tell that the way the lawsuit was designed was designed to take an emotional toll on me. Suck me in. Make me read all of the transcripts from the court, all the reporting, all the research, and eventually, you know, talk to Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University on my show about this. Like, I just can't pull myself away from this doom loop. Yeah. I think. Should he be held accountable for what he's doing? I don't know. We'll see. But there might be a loss meta, of course, trading down massively today. Almost 9% off of this. And, you know, there's some real concerns. Right. If they. There's new legal risk, there's thousands of other kind of lawsuits floating out there. You might get more copycat lawsuits, class actions. And then the real question is, like, do they have to make any product level changes? Does that end up impacting time spent in the app which will impact the advertising business. Such a weird one because certainly I don't think back throughout. Nasdaq is also down 2% today. So there's a general sell off but. Yeah, yeah, general sell off but like you know, meta. Meta down dramatically. That's a lot in that hundreds of billions of dollars. Yeah. This is a weird one on a personal level because like on one hand my kids. I'm going to keep away the infinite scroll machine as long as I possibly can. Right. And I will, you know, I don't think back on the time that I've spent on social media and think, you know, wow, I'm so glad I put in those long hours and I really put in the work. Yeah. It just doesn't seem that addictive to me. I can pull myself away like anytime. It's not a big deal. It's just not a big deal. We lost just sounds like it sounds this place our honeymoon. Okay you just gotta get more ask you a question. If you follow me, I'll double your bank account. Well on Instagram. Okay. I mean this is good content. Follow me. This is the route you would have to take if you want to go to. This is my subscriber. This is my. This is such a. Hey, Jimmy. This is such a good. This is the final mystery box. Yeah, it's fine. We're gonna get back to the show in a little bit. It's not a big deal. Not be surprised at college classroom grabbed 100 people. He grabbed 100 people. Okay. He took. He took people that are ages 1 all the way to 100 and he's having them taste test lunch late. I gotta watch this. The world's largest led. Okay. It's the wall. The largest LED floor. No, this is just my normal feed the best. What's yours like? I am scrolling, Mr. B. It's so. It's so funny because it. I think. I think whatever that was was completely inverted from you know, a meditation soundtrack. Right. It's just like. It's so insane. Anyway, let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market your business on MongoDB. Don't just power AI, don't just build AI own the data platform that powers it. And let me also tell you about Cisco. Sorry. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real time experiences new value with Cisco. Never apologize. The funny thing is how addictive are the apps themselves? Can they argue that the apps themselves. It's really not us I've seen some people's channels. Not very addictive. Yeah. In many ways, our content, we talk about niche subjects in technology and business. There's a lot of content on YouTube that is far, far, far more addictive. Yeah, but yeah, no, I've generally had a good experience on social media. You know what else is addicting? What? High speed trains. Oh, you want to skip to high speed trains. You don't want to do. We can come back to that. Okay, we can come back to that one. What's going on with this? So in China, high speed trains have become a sightseeing attraction. This is a good. I would definitely go to this. I would 100% just go see the high speed train rip through the countryside. That looks amazing. I love it. Also, this is the most incredible video of China that I've ever seen. What is it? What is this mountain range at sunset? I think people are posted up there even if the train isn't there. Yeah, like one of the most beautiful. You think that secretly everyone there is like, boo, the train ruined my beautiful view. Because, like, they could just be sitting there watching the amazing sunset and landscape. That guy's leaning forward as. Yeah, I think they're pumped up. I think they're cheering. I think they're cheering. That's great. Where else do you want to go? We can go back to this article. Okay. Okay. I.

That's great. Where else do you want to go? We can go back to this article. Okay. Okay. Because I need to know where everyone stands. I need to know where do you stand on shoplifting? Are you pro or anti. Are you pro or anti? I'm anti. You're anti shoplifting. What about you? There we go. I had one moment as a kid when I think I took a piece of candy and my parents immediately took me back. I'm gonna put you under citizens arrest right now. Yeah, it's time for citizens arrest. No, it took me back and I was like the most deeply embarrassing moment. That's like a core memory of telling them. And I think it was at an age that I didn't really know that it was wrong, but still. Well, that's not what's going on, actually. So the Wall Street Journal wrote a piece about in free expression. Emma Camp wrote this op ed. And there's a new generation of. Yes, the Campinator. There's a new generation of shoplifters who aren't children, who should have learned their lesson long time ago, but are actually fairly affluent and are just sort of sneaking out. Luxury good. I think that's a piece of it. But it was. But she makes a very compelling argument for why this is a very bad thing. We need to make skydiving more accessible. Okay. Like if skydiving was a dollar for the thrill. A dollar a dive. Yeah. I think a lot of people might say, I'm just going to go skydiving today. I don't. I'm not going to steal anything. Well, I mean, Ben on our team is working on a new weather report or jet ski racing of thrilling things. Yeah. We could make jet skis more accessible. Universal basic jet ski. I like that. I think a lot of people would say, I don't have time to steal. I'm getting ready for the race. Yeah, my cortisol is super low. I don't need to spike it by sneaking something out. So at least once a week, I. As I begin my commute from home from a midtown Manhattan subway station, I see someone in a suit and tie dodge the fair. Well, it isn't always a suit. Sometimes it's a chunky J. Crew sweater and ballet flats. Each time I see the fair Evader slip through an open emergency exit or casually hop over the turnstile, a wave of outrage bubbles within me. Says, Emma Camp in the Wall Street Journal, free expression. And I consider shouting out after the shameless thief, you should do it. I am in favor of. Of yelling at fair Dodgers in this case. But before I can work up the courage, he's melted into the crowd. It's tempting to give fairhoppers and shoplifters the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are all Jean Valjeans. Do you get that reference? No. Les Mis. You got to see Les Mis. Jean Valjean is the pinnacle of morality. He steals a loaf of bread for his family because they're starving, goes to jail, gets revenge. It's a great story coming back. You will love it. You should see it in a theater because it is, of course, a live stage production many times, but there's also a bunch. There's also a great movie with Liam Neeson. The Liam Neeson one is the one you want to see. There you go. The Liam Neeson. Les Mis is amazing. I think I have that right, but that's far from the truth. Well, according to one 2025 survey, and this was what was interesting about this article, the likelihood that someone would purposefully take an item at self checkout without scanning at actually increased with income. So the rich get richer. The rich are stealing from the rich. A viral article in Curbed, a site published by the New York Times Mag or by New York Magazine, paints a vivid picture of this kind of thief. A member of a certain subset of the city's wealthy ish, as writer Nora Delighter puts it, for whom a little shoplifting on your grocery run has become about as mundane as jaywalking. This isn't exactly surprising. A report from the Council on Criminal justice released earlier this year found that while reported shoplifting decreased during the pandemic, rates have returned to roughly. Wait, did they just decrease because people were ordering groceries online? I think so. I think so. If you're not in the store, you can't steal anything. You gotta. You gotta hack the system or something. It becomes a cybercrime to steal from doordash. But rates have since returned roughly to pre pandemic levels. This New York magazine profile in Curbed profiles several shoplifters who were caught stealing from Whole Foods. None were acting out of necessity, and most stole what can accurately be described as luxury goods. $30 eye cream, strip steak, fancy organic chocolate. None expressed guilt, and one explicitly justified her actions as being in a kind of artist's subsidy. Petty theft is a vice for a certain kind of loser. Go off Emma Camp I love this. Many of those profiled in this article are creative types, photographers, graphic designers, sculptors, and musicians. Presumably, these people are highly educated but downwardly mobile. They steal because they feel entitled to the kind of life where they have can thoughtlessly drop $50 on French cheese and sushi rolls while paying Manhattan rent. That they can't indulge in such luxuries feels to them like a moral outrage, one that can be rectified in some small ways by taking what's owed to them. When shoplifters justify their actions online, they make themselves out to be Robin Hoods. They claim it's good to steal from large and therefore evil corporations. This is a teenager's leftism, one in which fighting the man means ripping him off. It's a post hoc justification for a baser impulse, the belief that everything you want should be free. This motivation is made particularly clear when people justify fare evasion, given that public transportation is inherently not a big private enterprise. It's not a megacorp, it's taxpayer dollars that you're to supposed stealing from. Even when we grant. Even when we grant the assumption that large companies are inherently evil, which for the record, I don't, says Emma Camp in the Wall Street Journal, that doesn't justify stealing from them. If thou shalt not steal doesn't work for you, consider another argument. Petty theft damages the institutions and businesses in a community, making them materially worse for your neighbors. You may think you aren't hurting anyone. Actually, you're hurting everyone. Businesses hike prices to make up for shoplifting losses. Have you heard of like loss? It's called like loss rates or something. Like every retail store just assumes that they're going to get 20% or 5% or something. Yeah, I don't think it's. It can be high. It can be high in some stores. Like significant amount of merchandise just like gets loss. Prevention is like the term that they focus on, but it's like a constant problem for these businesses and they have thin margins. People don't realize. I think people think like grocery stores because like you go and check out it's 100 bucks or something. It's like they're making a ton of money. But like the margins are very thin on those. It's not arm, they're not licensing IP to Apple. They may even close public transportation crumbles without sufficient revenue from riders. As journalist Kelsey Piper put it in a post on X, when you shoplift, you directly and unambiguously impoverish your community. That bar of chocolate you swiped isn't nothing. That little pot of eye cream you slipped into your purse is more than a rounding error on a corporate balance sheet. What you're doing ultimately creates a worse, less functional, less trustworthy society and even shoplifters need a place to get groceries. Yeah. The comment section is agreeing with Emma. He said. Well said. And I'll extend it beyond just shoplifting to include things like buying something with the intent of returning it after using it for a few days. I remember someone buying a grill at Lowe's with the intent of using it for the weekend and then returning it, which they did. Okay. Yeah. Just steaks didn't really come out that well. I don't think it was me. I think it was the grill. I'm not. I'm not a big returns guy. Costco does have a huge return policy. Yeah, it's so. It's so interesting. The. The Coogan or the Hayes mind cannot comprehend the return. Like, it's. I've maybe returned. Yeah. Two things in the last 10 years. It's just not an impulse that I have. Because you're deeply in touch with everyone.

And years ago. Anyway. The reactions to The Meta and YouTube trial continue. Ariel Gribner says, Gibner says. This is disgusting. And I can't wait for the appeals. The precedent set by YouTube being liable for screen time addiction is kind of scary. Treating algorithms like a defective product opens the door to endless lawsuits over addictive tech. What's next? Books? Video games? Junk food? I mean, video games, we got to do something about those things are too, too fun. Too fun. Truly. We gotta make them. Except. Except you. You ascended. You beat your addiction. Yeah, I definitely did. You don't. You don't game anymore. You actually did. I mean, it might be one of those things, like you're still addicted. Addicted. You just might have been playing a game earlier this week. Got sneaky little 45 minutes. Really? Yeah. No, yeah, it was good player obscura. I'm gonna go look. You gotta pull me out. I'm addicted now. I'm going to go look back in our text and see like, when did it take you 45 minutes to respond to something? It was like Tuesday night. Yeah. I'm going to be coming after Eric Jorgensen. Oh, yeah. The book of. Yeah. Because that just came out and Eric did a fantastic job. Yes. And I think it's highly addictive. We got it. Can we sue this lawyer? Because this is one of the most interesting cases and I actually can't pull myself away from it. And I feel like I'm just going to spend hours and hours reading about this lawsuit. Yeah. And I don't know, it's depressing. It's making me sad thinking about these tech companies having to pay fines. And it's just ruining my mood entirely. And it was like, you can tell that the way the lawsuit was designed was designed to take an emotional toll on me. Suck me in. Make me read all of the transcripts from the court, all the reporting, all the research and event. You know, talk to Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University on my show about this. Like, I just can't pull myself away from this doom loop. Yeah. I think, I think. Should he be held accountable for what he's doing? I don't know. We'll see. But there might be a loss that of course trading down massively today. Almost 9% off of this. And you know, there's some real concerns. Right. If they. There's new legal risk, there's thousands of other kind of lawsuits floating out there. You might get more copycat lawsuits, class actions. And then the real question is like, do they have to make any product level changes? Does that end up impacting time spent in the app which will impact the advertising business. Such a weird one because certainly I don't think back throughout. Nasdaq is also down 2% today. So there's a general sell off but. Yeah, yeah, general sell off but like, you know, meta. Meta down dramatically more than that. Hundreds of billions of dollars. Yeah. This is a weird one on a personal level because like on one hand, my kids. I'm gonna keep away the infinite scroll machine as long as I possibly can. Right. And I will, you know, I don't think back on the time that I've spent on social media and think, you know, wow, I'm so glad I put in those long hours and I really put in the work. Yeah. It just doesn't seem that addictive to me. I can pull myself away like anytime. It's not a big deal. It's just not a big deal. We lost just sounds like it sounds this place our honeymoon. Okay. You just gotta get more. Ask you a question. If you follow me, I'll double your bank account. Well on Instagram. Okay. I mean this is good content. Follow me. This is the route you would have to take if you want to go to. This is my subscriber. This is my. This is such a. Hey, Jimmy. This is such a good. This is the final mystery box. Yeah, it's fine. We're gonna get back to the show in a little bit. It's not a big deal. Not be surprised at college classroom grabbed 100 people. He grabbed 100 people. Okay. He took. He took people that are ages 1 all the way to 100 and he's having them taste test lunch. Leave. I gotta watch this. The world's largest led. Okay. It's the wall. The largest LED floor. No, this is just my normal feed. What's yours like? I am scrolling Mr. Beast. It's so funny because I think whatever that was was completely inverted from a meditation soundtrack. Right. It's so insane. Anyway, let me tell you about.

Do we want to talk about this? Meta? This minor headline on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, it says, Meta YouTube found addictive, harmful. It's like one of the hardest hitting headlines I've ever seen on the front of the Wall Street Journal. For two companies that are usually relegated to the business and finance section, they made it to the front page because they were found guilty or you know, by California jurors. California jurors say the tech companies designed their apps to cause injury to kids. Very, very bad. But Brandon Gorell had a take and a write up and some explanation of what's actually going on here. And then we are of course having Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University come on and break it down for us in more detail because there is a lot of debate about this and it's been very interesting watching it play out. The total damages are I think 3 million. Each company, roughly 6 million total. And I had a friend who's a lawyer who texted me and sent me the number and was like, hey, I'm predicting that It'll be like 3, 3M. And I didn't read the M. And I was like, okay, 3 billion. Like what did that do? This is not that big of a deal. And then it was 3 million and I was like, that's extremely low compared to like the numbers that we normally see from big tech companies. But this has much broader implications because this is precedent setting and there will be a flood of other zucks. Like I did spend all of my free cash flow on data centers. But if you give me another two seconds, I will have the, have the cash flow to cover this. So just give me like two seconds. Yes, but it is, it is a very important case. Even though this particular ruling is not changing the cash flow structure of these businesses because it has a lot of ramifications and there's a lot more plaintiffs that are in the queue. So this is what Brandon Gorell wrote in our newsletter today, which you can sign up for@tvpn.com Yesterday a Los Angeles jury found both Meta and YouTube. It's fantastic. I want a lot of soundboard for this. Both Meta and YouTube liable for a 20 year old woman's mental health crisis In a bellwether trial that treated platforms as, quote, defective platform products and potentially marks the end to the absolute immunity nature of section 230 in the case, the plaintiff's lawyer, Mark Lanier argued that Meta and YouTube built, quote, digital casinos that use neurobiological techniques similar to those employed by slot machines. Fun fact about arm throwback. The first chip that the company, the precursor company ever built was a chip that went into a slot machine. They call them fruit machines in England. Fruit machines. Fruit machines. They call them fruit machines because they have like the cherries and the strawberries and the bananas and you line them up and they needed chips to run those. So the iPhone traces its lineage and Apple silicon and all this goes much deeper than that. It all goes back to literally gambling. Very fascinating. Anyway, so the jury found that specific features ofMea and YouTube are designed to be addictive. Infinite scroll creates an environment where there are no natural stopping points. Algorithmic recommendation feeds users feeds users highly engaging content. Autoplay removes users agency in choosing whether or not to watch the next video. Notifications pull users back in by exploiting their need for validation. Instagram beauty filters contributed to the plaintiff's body dysmorphia. Features like the like button exploit users biological need for societal approval. This is what the lawyer argued. The plaintiff's lawyer argued Shake Shack exploited my biological need for food. Yes, there is this question. There was Taylor Lorenz had some great takes here. She said so, so Taylor has come out in the last like 48 hours, I would say is like the number one defender of big technology. Yeah, she does have one of the top technology podcasts in the world. She had a, she had a take that was like, so does Spotify. Did Spotify addict you to music by playing like good songs for you on demand? This AI DJ is simply too good. I mean that's kind of the argument. They didn't obviously go after Spotify, they went after Meta and YouTube. But yeah, there's a question about like what UI features, what are dark patterns and how do we regulate those? And it's very interesting, but the decision has been made and these companies will have to pay $6 million to the plaintiff in total damages. This is obviously a trivial amount of money for these companies. But the bellwether nature of the outcome has significant implications for social media. There are over 10,000 individual personal personal injury cases, almost 800 school district claims and 40 state level cases pending nationwide that are similar to KGM versus Meta and YouTube. More broadly, the social media industry's reliance in Section 230, which has up to now shielded them from liability for user generated content, may no longer be enough to protect them from litigation like this. Now to be clear, this case is not, it's not attacking Section 230 because it's not making the argument that someone uploaded a video to YouTube that said you should be sad. You should be afraid it's over and that made someone sad. That is the content that is user generated that is protected under section 230. You might be able to go after the individual creator of that video. If I make a video that says like Jordy Hayes sucks and should be sad and then you get sad, you might be able to sue me, I think. I don't know. But that's a little bit more defensible. Cause it's like me on you. But you won't be able to sue YouTube for platforming that content, for putting that up in just general cases. But this is different because they went after the like button, the infinite scroll, the recommendation feeds, the features that are built by the platforms themselves. So if the decision makes it through appeals and this might go all the way to the Supreme Court, we'll see. Platforms may be forced to redesign their user experiences and algorithms, put up age verification, even deprecate infinite scroll. Obviously changes like this would have an effect on both these platforms. Ad based revenue models Meta and Google plan to appeal the decision. It's not hard to imagine this one making it to the Supreme Court. Taylor's also been sort of sounding the alarm bells around age verification. It sounds very good. I feel like I'm pro age verification based on like I have kids and I don't want them seeing adult content. But she was worried about the KYC and needing to be tracked, privacy tracking anywhere. And that is a good, that is a good argument to be made. Well, let me tell you about graphite code.

Do we want to talk about this? Meta this minor headline on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, it says, Meta YouTube found addictive, harmful. It's like one of the hardest hitting headlines I've ever seen on the front of the Wall Street Journal. For two companies that are usually relegated to the business and finance section, they made it to the front page because they were found guilty or, you know, by California jurors. California jurors say the tech companies designed their apps to cause injury to kids. Very, very bad. But Brandon Gorell had a take and a write up and some explanation of what's actually going on here. And then we are of course having Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University come on and break it down for us in more detail because there is a lot of debate about this and it's been very interesting watching it play out. The total damages are, I think, 3 million. Each company, roughly 6 million total. And I had a friend who's a lawyer who texted me and sent me the number and was like, hey, I'm predicting that It'll be like 3, 3M. And I didn't read the M. And I was like, okay, 3 billion. Like, what did that do? This is not that big of a deal. And then it was 3 million. And I was like, that's extremely low compared to like the numbers that we normally see from big tech companies. But this has much broader implications because this is precedent setting and there will be a flood of other zucks. Like, I did spend all of my free cash flow on data centers. But if you give me another two seconds, I will have the, have the cash flow to cover this. So just give me like two seconds. Yes, but it is, it is a very important case. Even though this particular ruling is not changing the cash flow structure of these businesses because it has a lot of ramifications and there's a lot more plaintiffs that are in the queue. So this is what Brandon Gorell wrote in our newsletter today, which you can sign up for at tvpn. Com.

You're surrounded by Juno in all due position. Strike 1. Strike 2. Activate. Go. Triple glaze. Market clearing order in UAV online. 5 p. Multiple journalists on the horizon. Founder, You're watching TVPN. Today is Thursday, March 26th. We are live from the TVP and Ultra Dom. The tablet technology, the Forbes finance, the capital of capital. Well, let me tell you about ramp.com. time is money save. Both easy use corporate cards, bill pay accounting and a whole lot more. Let me also pull up the linear lineup because we have a monster show. Jordy's back in the TVP and ultradome. I know you missed him. We have Eric Goldman coming on to help break down the meta YouTube lawsuit. By the way, yesterday was the first time we've been live that I was not on the air. Yeah. And so I was watching. How'd I do Here we can drop the linear lineup. Linear, of course, is the system for modern software development. 70% of enterprise workspaces on linear are using agents. Give me a review. How did I do? I thought you did fantastic. I was texting you in real time. I probably sent you like 20 something messages of like ask about this. Ask himself that it was. Yeah, somebody in the chat said I was free soloing TVPN and it was great. But we really bore down to our last few associates here. Tyler was out, Jordy was out. Who else? Yeah, Nick was out. We were on. What do they call it, a shoestring or something like that. I don't know. But it worked out. It was a fun show. It's not the same show without the soundboard. I was gonna do this whole bit about like, oh yeah, I got it dialed. You can just. We don't need you on the show anymore. And then of course the fans would be like, no, bring back Jordy. And I'd be like, yeah, okay, he's back. But I can't even joke about it because we need the soundboard. I only got. It really is musical. It really is. Imagine if you were. I was waiting for you to just be spamming that. Just sitting there having a serious interview. Apparently we have some audio issues. Okay, we will work. Bear with us. We're working on it. But I can go through. I can go through a bit of our guest lineup today. We have Nima Highlights friend of mine, he is a founder of Salt and Stone. Yeah, they recently exited the business as of this week. A massive multi hundred million dollar deal. Very excited to get to understand the business better, we have John McNeil coming on. He's an author to talk about Elon Musk's five step algorithm for scaling Tesla. Then we have Kari from LINEAR on how linear is evolving in the AI age. And then we have a bunch of different founders including Mikey from SUNO coming on. Then we got back to back Zachs, Zach Kanter, Zach Perret, back to back Zachs. That's what I'd like to see. Well, the big news of the day, of the week, this has been going on all week is that army, the intellectual property developer that creates intellectual property designs for CPUs, is now getting into the chip game. And they got a big arm pump the stock market. So the company is up 15% over the last few days on the news that they will sell their own chips. This is new for arm. ARM is a very old company. Fascinating history. I actually made a 25 minute YouTube video all about the history of the company back in 2023. But we'll recap a little bit of it today. But they normally just license out their intellectual property and that is a phenomenal business. 97% gross margins. 97% gross margins, yeah. Let's give it up. There we go. That's amazing. And you know, it's a big business. 4 billion in revenue last year, nearly 800 million of net income. They're this new move. They're expecting to ramp revenue to $15 billion by 2031. So they're expanding the market significantly. Now margins will be different, but the market cap for ARM is now around $166 billion. So it's a big company. Trades at a very high 4 billion last year, currently trading at 165 billion, but very, very high gross margins. So this is a big shift in strategy. ARM's not an AI loser by any means, but it hasn't gotten the attention that other GPU makers have received like Nvidia. CPUs are far from dead though. In fact, we are currently in what seems like a little bit of a CPU crunch. Intel can't make CPUs fast enough. Nvidia is starting to sell their Grace CPU that goes with their hopper. So you get the H100 and you pair it with the Grace CPU. You get the GPU and the CPU all on one system. Well, now you can buy the CPU by itself if you're CPU constrained. So you don't want to just be GPU rich and CPU poor. You got to be rich in both camps. And a lot of companies are jumping in to fill this gap. So agents, and a lot of this is because of agents. Agents need CPUs you need to fill the GPUs constantly with new data and tasks. Also, all of the agents use CPUs to make web queries, search the web, run Python, spin up web servers, interact with anything we've just seen. We talked to some folks at Semianalysis about this. Uptime is going down for non GPU accelerated workloads. You go to a SaaS product that is basically just a web server that's running on a CPU somewhere in a data center and you're like, ah, this thing isn't loading today. Or like there's downtime. And a lot of that's just because we're writing more software, we're using more software as a society, as a country, and we need more CPUs as well as GPUs, even though GPUs are like the hot thing to talk about. So ARM has a very interesting backstory as I mentioned. You can go watch my 25 minute YouTube video about it. To go all the way back and all the precursor companies, it's a really long story, but you can think about it basically as a joint venture between three groups, Apple and Acorn Computer and vlsi. And so they needed to design a low power CPU for mobile devices. Before phones. You know what was hot? Jordy? PDAs. And have you ever seen a PDA, Tyler? No. You've never seen a PDA? I don't think so. Wow. Okay, so before the iPhone, everyone had flip phones, but before. Is it not a pager? It's not a pager. You don't know what this is either? No. Wow. So there's something called a PalmPilot and basically it was, it was like a, like a, you know, iPhone sized screen and it has stylus and you could write on it and you could make notes and PDA stood for personal digital assistant. And I feel like that brand is just itching to come back in 2026. Like that's what so many people are. Everyone is working on a pda. Yeah. Personal Super Intelligence assistance. There's a whole bunch of things we're building. PDA's folks, they just live in the cloud and it's not a physical device. But these PDAs back in the 90s were physical devices. This was post pager, pre smartphone and it was the device that you carried to take notes and do things that you do today in apps you would do on your pda. But it wasn't always on Internet connected, none of that. It was a Palm Pilot. And this was like A fantastic business for a while, but there were a lot of problems with this because for the first time you needed a CPU that could live within a plastic shell. Basically these were like plastic enclosures, needed to run a battery. You needed to be able to do some things not crazy compute. But the CPU industry in the 90s was very focused on mainframes, servers, desktops. There were a few laptops popping up. But it was not the mobile phone revolution that's happening now where you have Apple Silicon chips. And those are of course based on ARM architecture. But that's where all this came from. People said, okay, we need a lower power chip that can actually run off a battery, not overheat and melt the plastic. Do all of this and it can be. Somebody can be. Can power a device that you carry with you as a personal digital assistant, a PDA. And so chicken in the chat says PayPal started on PDAs. That's right, that's right. So PayPal started. Originally, the idea was these PDAs had. They didn't have like tap to pay or anything like that rfid. They had basically the same device that you'd see on a TV remote, so ir. And it would flash a light that could be seen by another sensor. And if you flash the light at a certain rate, you can send a message. You can. Basically, it's like advanced. What's that SOS thing? Morse. Morse code. It's like a more advanced version of Morse code. And so you could send a specific packet of information for, from PDA to PDA. And this was the original idea for PayPal. That's correct. That's a great, great piece of lore. Tech lore. So the. So you know, ARM starts to build these later. There's Robin Saxby, who is the CEO of ARM at the time. He wanted ARM to become the global standard for CPUs. And so in the 90s, there were lots of different CPU makers, lots of different architectures. There's this whole thing CISC versus RISC debate. There's the x86 architecture that intel pioneers. And slight differences in architectures can limit interoperability. You see this with what's going on with Mac, where a whole bunch of applications have needed to be rewritten for Apple Silicon because previously you would have an Intel Mac before we got to the M1, M2, M3, M4, M5 chips. Those are Apple Silicon, those are ARM based. And sometimes you'll go to a website and be like, oh, do you want to download this for a Mac? Like, what do you have. Do you have an Intel Mac or do you have an Apple Silicon Mac? Well, it's important because when you write the software that runs on the Mac, you need to use specific instruction sets. Now there are ways to abstract that and run on either, but there are lots of pieces of software that interact with the CPU at a low enough level that they need to be aware of the instruction set. So ARM sets out to be the global standard for CPUs and they create the ISA, the instruction set architecture. And that ultimately let Apple design their own chips, but within the architectural guidelines set forth by arm. So Apple pays a license for to ARM for every chip Apple sells. It's a very small license fee because Apple does a lot of design work. They do the manufacturing, TSMC fabs it and like there's a million other pieces of the value chain, but for this one little slice they have to pay arm. And ARM just takes that and says thanks, cool, you used our intellectual property successfully. You know who else says thanks? Who? Masayoshi Son. That's true. Because huge ARM is true. They own 90%, roughly 90% of the company. It was a full buyout in 2016. They bought the entire company for something around 25, 30 billion USD by the entire company. They still own 90% today. So they're like SoftBank's holdings just in that one company are somewhere in the range of 140 billion. It's great. When I was looking at it's the. And of course they've massively levered up 100 billion. Well and they've massively levered up against that position. They've raised debt against their holdings in arm, but certainly Mazda's somewhere out in the world seeing it go up 15%. Just happy smashing a gong. I hope so. I hope so. And although everyone knows Apple, my clickbait for my YouTube video was like, did you know the iPhone is secretly British? I think it's funny because it uses ARM deep inside. But ARM licenses to a ton of different tech companies. So Amazon uses ARM for the Graviton chips. A lot of Android phone makers have ARM based chips. Tons of other tech companies license ARM's technology to build chips. But now ARM is going to be making the chips themselves and they're going to be working with meta platforms and OpenAI. This means a shift in the economics of the business. So 97% gross margins for just those licensing ISA contracts. This will be closer to 50% but it. But it should be offset by the huge gains in market size and revenue potential. So the Company has one of the highest multiples in semiconductors, roughly 90 times forward earnings. So there's a lot to live up to, but there's a lot of value coming from AI agents that have access to plentiful CPU resources. The industry dynamics are also particularly interesting. Ben Thompson pointed this out in Stratecheri. So Nvidia sells an ARM based CPU that grace cpu. And so there are. Nvidia is sort of competing with arm. Jensen showed up and gave like a remote talk at this ARM event where they announced this chip. And so they're competing but they're also in some ways working together because they're challenging x86 options from intel and AMD that are still really popular. And so if intel is constrained, it's like they're like if Nvidia sells a bunch of chips for, you know, AI workloads, well then that actually makes ARM more likely to sell their chips as well because whatever software is built for the Nvidia ARM based chips will probably run on the ARM ARM based chips. So there's some sort of like integration there. And the x86 moat is not as strong as the CUDA mode, but there's still this like dynamic of, of Nvidia and Army are going up against intel and AMD in the same way that different GPU makers are going up against the CUDA mode. So there's like this, all these different interactions there. But it'll all be interesting to follow. Let's move on. The big news that drove this was of course Meta Engineering at Meta said today we're announcing a new partnership with ARM to collaborate on the development of multiple generations of purpose built CPUs to support compute and AI infrastructure. ARM called it the ARM AGI CPU. What a great name. We love it. Let me tell you about Label Box, RL Environments, Voice Robotics, Data evals and expert human data. Label Box is the data factory behind the world's leading AI teams. And let me also tell you about Sentry. Sentry shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps warm. So the Wall Street Journal has another good write up of this story talking about how this the timing is good, there is a boom in CPUs right now, but the stock is already priced very highly and everything has to go perfectly because it trades at one of the highest multiples of all the semiconductor companies. So what else is going on in the timeline? Let's talk about this data center moratorium. Bill. Yes. I wrote in the newsletter today, yesterday, Senator Bernie Sanders and AOC introduced a new bill, the AI Data Center Moratorium act of 2026 that if enacted would require all current and planned data centers to halt construction, slash production. It even, it would even block upgrading existing data centers. So if you have an asset and you want to make changes to it, in theory, as, as this bill is written today, it would be blocked. They, they sort of like define data centers based on power demands, cooling capabilities, like how much power you can get to each individual rack. So they have been fairly specific, but trying to be like I was thinking, I was fine with this. I was thinking like I don't need any more AI data centers at this point. We can freeze those. I just want to build AGI data centers and ASI data centers. And so as long as I can just build tons of those like it should be fine. But it is interesting that they, they seem to have figured out the semantic loopholes that might happen if its default AI. Yeah, the bill would halt all new new data center construction and upgrades until more legislation is put in place to guarantee the following. And these will be tough to guarantee. So from Sanders site, they want AI to be safe and effective, preventing executives in the AI industry from releasing harmful products into the world that threaten the health and well being of working families, our privacy and civil rights and the future of humanity. The economic gains of AI and robotics will benefit workers, not just the wealthy owners of big tech. And AI does not increase electricity or utility prices, harm communities or destroy the environment. So anyway, this stuff seems good. Yeah, all generally good. But no one wants safe and ineffective AI. Well, yeah, and the bigger problem is anytime you're creating, I don't think we've created a technology ever that didn't have some doubt, some negative impact. Car crash example. I'm sure this will be rewritten and debated and obviously it has a long way to go before becoming law. But this set of requirements seems completely impossible to actually achieve. It depends on how you define it. I mean AI does not increase electricity or utility prices like the ratepayer protection pledge and behind the meter stuff could. I'm more talking about, I'm more talking about number one, number one, safe and effective. I mean it's all in how you define that. Some of the parental controls are a good example of how to take that overarching thesis and then boil it down into something tractable. And when I hear that I think, oh, I don't know how we are defining safe. I don't know how we're defining effective. This feels like this could be. Be some sort of very vague thing where if one particular administration likes this company, they just approve it or not or whatever. But then when we actually talk to lawmakers and you hear something like, oh, yeah, we're going to require parental controls. So if your OffSpring has an AI account, you can say, hey, they are this age. Don't show them anything that's inappropriate for that age. That seems good. Yeah. So I don't know, overall, at least this, this first bullet point, preventing executives in the AI industry from releasing harmful products in the world. Yeah. That feels like you could end up having something like an FDA that's like, every product you create needs to go through years of studies in order. In order for the government. And it's like, hey, I just wanted to create, like a slightly more AI native version of the SAS tool. Yeah. Do I really want to make SaaS? I just want to make SaaS. Yeah. At the same time, like the, like the. The bull case. I mean, I think we're. I think the FDA model would really slow things down based on how long the FDA takes to approve things. At the same time. What is the definition of harmful here? Is it net harmful products? Because that is the goal of the fda. They release drugs all the time that have side effects. You take this, it cures your cancer, but it's gonna make you throw up or it's gonna make you lose your hair. And people are like, yeah, I'll take that trade. And so if you went through the government, you said, okay, yeah, I'm gonna give you this tool that can, like, write code, but sometimes it's gonna hallucinate. And, like, you might get a code. You might get some code that doesn't pass tests. I'd be like, yeah, okay. Like, it speeds me up. On average, I'm in. Like, that's fine. And having some of those disclosures. And it's the same thing with knowledge retrieval. Like, I do a deep research report, I get something that's 99% of the way there. Maybe there's something in there that's like, oh, that's actually, like, misattributed or that number's. I know that that number's from this report online that was wrong and the model doesn't. And so I need to fact check it. I still see that as, like, net beneficial. But there are, of course, like, flaws in every system. And so, you know, again, it's like, how does this get defined over time? That's, like, important one thing. I Noticed from the announcement was that they are using leaders own statements against them and it's easy to see how this would resonate with their constituents. Really powerful. So they, on Sanders websites he included this quote. In December, Elon Musk who leads xi, said he had quote, a lot of AI nightmares and would quote, certainly slow down AI and robotics if he could. It's so interesting because Elon doesn't talk about that with like the rollout of electric cars or the rollout of space travel. He's not saying like, oh yeah, like you know, 2030 is too soon to get to Mars. Like we need to, we need to slow down on the race to the moon. Like let's really figure out the spacesuits first. You know, he's like, let's just go, yeah. And then another one. In January, Demis, the head of Google's DeepMind, said he would support an AI pause if he knew other countries and companies also paused development. In February, Dariama Day, the head of Anthropic said he was absolutely in favor of trying to slow down AI development if other countries also slowed down. That was Davos, I believe, both January, February. So continuing. Yeah, I wrote. But the problem of course is that there is zero movement on getting other countries to slow down. I can imagine some companies that would be like, there's already comments in the chat about like, yeah, let China win. Yeah, I'm not going to name the countries that would be down to slow down, but I think we all know that, that China, even if they agreed to something like this, wouldn't just automatically do anything about it. So. But the problem of course. Are there any countries that are like, yeah, we, we definitely should, we're ready to slow down. Like we're France. Well, I think if you're way behind, if you're way behind, there's kind of a benefit, there's a huge incentive. Elon, Elon had said, I think in 2023 that he supported like a six month pause. Yeah. And at that, at that moment that would have been awesome. Yeah. Because if I could just have six months to like get my get. I feel like, I feel like if you pull people in the south of France or the Amalfi coast, like those folks would say we should just slow down generally like AI, but also just slow down our lives, enjoy a glass of wine, hit the bar, even like a summer break. Just a summer break. Four weeks. Yeah. Or even like during the workday, like taking a break, taking a nap, just taking, just slowing down generally. I think, I think There's a lot of people that are just in favor of that. Yeah. But, okay, Jordi, like, if. If you're saying, like, people who are behind should want to, like, slow down, like, does that mean that China should be more in favor of slowing down? That is interesting. That is. Well, I'm just saying I can imagine in the same way that, like, for as many chips as we give them, advanced GPUs, as we give them, you can assume they're still going to put an immense amount of pressure to kind of stimulate the local semiconductor industry in the same way here. I'm sure they would love for the United States to just pause all new data center construction. And I think it's possible that they would, like, generally say, like, yeah, like, this seems good, but then what would they actually do? They would just use that as an opportunity to catch up. Right. So my question is, like, where does China actually stand on this? I'd be very interested to know. Maybe you could look it up. Like, has the Chinese Communist Party actually put out any statements about whether they want to accelerate or pause AI development? Because there, I think that they might refrain from taking that stance because it would discourage local indigenous development. Like, if the government is coming out and saying, we want to slow down, then a lot of entrepreneurs are going to be like, okay, I'll go back to E Commerce or I'll go back to manufacturing. I'm not going to work on this because the government doesn't want me to. And so I feel like there's this tug. Even though I agree with you, it would be in their advantage to say, hey, we want to slow down. Everyone should slow down. We're pro slowdown. If they actually said that, it would have an immediate slowdown effect on the local AI progress. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like, it would slow down. Yeah. I mean, yeah, because even. Even if they. Even if they. If they just take that stance because it's an authoritarian country, like, there's like this, like. Like the Bernie Sanders comments stands in opposition to other politicians who are saying, like, no, actually, things are going well, and here's how we're going to, you know, like, advance energy and to build more. And so. But if you don't have that and it comes down as, like, a dictate or, you know, like, this is the stance from the government. It's much harder for local entrepreneurs and local AI labs to, like, push back against that because it feels like they're all of a sudden in opposition to the government, I would imagine. I don't Know, I'm very interested to hear how China's actually. Yeah. Anyway, so just to kind of finish my thought. Yeah, all these quotes, like, must go extremely hard if you're not kind of acknowledging the full picture, which is that the AI leaders are saying, yeah, if you get other countries to agree to slow down, we'd be open to it. But that is like the big elephant in the room. They don't mention any even conversations or dialogue with other countries around slowing down, and I don't think there's been any. So anyways, the act has a long way to go and it seems like the odds of it getting into law are low, but not zero. Safe to say that as written, the requirements in the bill would be an incredible gift to America's adversaries and catastrophic for overall AI progress. Yeah, could be popular, though. There are already some candidates who have, you know, made pausing AI or data center, like. Like pausing data center build outs sort of like their main thing. And it does seem to be getting traction. I don't know how much of that's just on social media. We'll see how it shows up in the midterms. But Sagar and Jetty was tracking this for a long time. Like, it's going to be a, like a political stump speech that hits. Like, people are going to be like, yeah, I don't like this stuff. Yeah. The question becomes, if anything like this were to become law, what are the effects of that? Right. Space. Right. The space data center people are saying, like, yeah, we were talking space data centers. Don't seem so silly now. Yeah, taking that angle. Although I'm sure they would also be like, you can't put them up there either. We're gonna try. Yeah. I mean, there's also. There's also just like the globalization process that happened based around environmentalism in like the 90s WTO ascension for China. Like, the reason that a lot of the mining happened in China is because, like we said, like, we don't want that here. Right. It's dirty, it's gross. There's chemicals, there's pollution. And so, like, out of sight, out of mind. Let's push it abroad. And we could do that again with data centers. We could just be like, they're all in Canada or Mexico or they're all in some, you know, Australia or New Zealand or like, you know, there could be a receptive country out there that just says, like, we would love. We are an ally now and we'd love to get all these data centers. And then you have to Ask the question of like, what does that look like in 30 years? Data centers generate, they don't create a lot of jobs locally. They create a meaningful amount of work during the development process. And certainly some jobs, they continue to generate massive amounts of tax. Local tax revenue. Yeah, I actually don't know how you tax. The data center that blocked, I think in New Jersey was going to be generating like tens of millions of dollars of local taxes, which is pretty good. Yeah, yeah. Real estate or I mean, yeah, like one medium ground here is like just tax that and then have. And then use the tax revenue to the environmental concerns. I think everybody should want to make sure that if we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars into these things that we're not destroying our lovely Mother Earth. And the energy costs, again, real concern, but we're making progress there. Well, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. And let me also tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Do we want to talk about this meta lawsuit? Oh, this minor headline on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, it says, Meta, YouTube found addictive, harmful. It's like one of the hardest hitting headlines I've ever seen on the front of the Wall Street Journal. For two companies that are usually relegated to the business and finance section, they made it to the front page because they were found guilty or you know, by California jurors. California jurors say the tech companies designed their apps to cause injury to kids. Very, very bad. But Brandon Gorell had a take and a write up and some explanation of what's actually going on here. And then we are of course having Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University come on and break it down for us in more detail because there is a lot of debate about this and it's been very interesting watching it play out. The total damages are I think 3 million. Each company, roughly 6 million total. And I had a friend who's a lawyer who texted me and sent me the number and was like, hey, I'm predicting that It'll be like 3M. And I didn't read the M. And I was like, okay, 3 billion. Like what did that do? This is not that big of a deal. And then it was 3 million. And I was like, that's extremely low compared to like the numbers that we normally see from big tech companies. But this has much broader implications because this is precedent setting and there will be A flood of other. Exactly. I did spend all of my free cash flow on data centers. But if you give me another two seconds, I will have the cash flow to cover this. So just give me like two seconds. Yes, but it is a very important case, even though this particular ruling is not changing the cash flow structure of these businesses because it has a lot of ramifications and there's a lot more plaintiffs that are in the queue. So this is what Brandon Gorell wrote in our newsletter today, which you can sign up for@tvpn.com Yesterday a Los Angeles jury found both Meta and YouTube. It's fantastic. I want a lot of soundboard for this. Both Meta and YouTube liable for a 20 year old woman's mental health crisis. In a bellwether trial that treated platforms as quote, defective products and potentially marks the end to the absolute immunity nature of section 230 in the case, the plaintiff's lawyer, Mark Lanier argued that meta and YouTube built quote, digital casinos that use neurobiological techniques similar to those employed by slot machines. Fun fact about ARM throwback. The first chip that the company, the precursor company ever built was a chip that went into a slot machine. They call them fruit machines in England. Fruit machines. Fruit machines. They call them fruit machines because they have like the cherries and the strawberries and the bananas and you line them up and they needed chips to run those. So the iPhone traces its lineage and Apple silicon and all this goes much deeper than that. It all goes back to literally gambling. Very fascinating. Anyway, so the jury found that specific features ofMea and YouTube are designed to be addictive. Infinite scroll creates an environment where there are no natural stopping points. Algorithmic recommendation feeds users highly engaging content. Autoplay removes users agency in choosing whether or not to watch the next video. Notifications pull users back in by exploiting their need for validation. Instagram beauty filters contributed to the plaintiff's body dysmorphia. Features like the like button exploit users biological need for societal approval. This is what the lawyer argued. The plaintiff's lawyer argued Shake Shack exploited my biological need for food. Yes, there is this question. There was Taylor Lorenzo had some great takes here. She said. So Taylor has come out in the last like 48 hours. I would say is like the number one defender of big technology. Yeah, she does have one of the top. She had a technology podcast in the world. She had a. She had, she had a take that was like so does Spotify. Did Spotify addict you to music by playing like good songs for you on demand and, and this dj, this, this AI DJ is simply too good. I mean that's kind of the argument. They didn't obviously go after Spotify, they went after meta and YouTube. But yeah, there's a question about like, you know, what UI features, what are dark patterns and how do we regulate those? And it's very interesting, but the decision has been made and these companies will have to pay $6 million to the plaintiff in total damages. This is obviously a trivial amount of money for these companies. But the bellwether nature of the outcome has significant implications for social media. There are over 10,000 individual personal, personal injury cases, almost 800 school district claims and 40 state level cases pending nationwide that are similar to KGM versus Meta and YouTube. More broadly, the social media industry's reliance on Section 230, which has up to now shielded them from liability for user generated content, may no longer be enough to protect them from litigation like this. Now to be clear, this case is not, it's not attacking Section 230 because it's not making the argument that someone uploaded a video to YouTube that said you should be sad, you should be afraid it's over and that made someone sad. That is the content that is user generated that is protected under section 230. You might be able to go after the individual creator of that video. If I make a video that says like Jordy Hayes sucks and should be sad and then you get sad, you might be able to sue me I think, I don't know. But that's a little bit more defensible because it's like me on YouTube. But you won't be able to sue YouTube for platforming that content, for putting that up in just general cases. But this is different because they went after the like button, the infinite scroll, the recommendation feeds, the features that are built by the platforms themselves. So if the decision makes it through appeals and this might go all the way to the Supreme Court, we'll see. Platforms may be forced to redesign their user experiences and algorithms, put up age verification, even deprecate Infinite scroll. Obviously changes like this would have an effect on both these platforms. Ad based revenue models Meta and Google plan to appeal the decision and it's not hard to imagine this one making it to the Supreme Court. Taylor's also been sort of sounding the alarm bells around age verification. It sounds very good. I feel like I'm pro age verification based on like I have kids and I don't want them seeing adult content. But she was worried about the KYC and needing to attract privacy tracking anywhere and that is a good argument to be made. Well, let me tell you about graphite code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. And let me also tell you about 11 labs. Build intelligent real time conversations. Powering agent inbound Reimagine human technology interaction with 11 labs. We have to start apologizing to the schizophrenic community. There is a surveillance drone reportedly flown by infiltrator elements and disguised as a natural bird, such as an eagle, that has been spotted in Iran. This goes back to Taylor Lyons because I believe she worked with the folks behind the viral stunt. Birds aren't real. That was sort of a commentary on the conspiratorial nature of the Internet. And in that stunt they make the argument that birds need to be recharged and they're all spying on you and no birds are real. Of course that is very satirical and funny, but apparently someone made a drone. Some, you know, organization made a drone that looks like a bird so it can sneak behind enemy lines and spy during the conflict, which is remarkable. But do you think there will ever be video games that are effectively, you're just remote piloting something in the real world? Yes. Do you think there would be demand for. Yes. So I have heard of this years and years ago that there was something along the. Along those lines that would allow you to hunt remotely. So you go to a website and you control a weapon that can hunt an animal. Which is crazy. I don't know if it's. That's crazy. But do they close the loop, like help you actually get. Yes, yes. They. So after you down the animal, they will go and ship it to you so you can mount it on your wall. Thanks. A lot of people sort of. Sort of. A lot of people are not gonna like that. I don't think Joe Rogan would approve. He's a bow hunter, you know. Yeah. He wants to watch the connectivity with. I think so. I think so. It's destroying. Destroying. Just destroying the. Now I'm curious. Is it. Is it like a. Is it. Is it like a. Is it a gun mounted to an atv? Not an atv, but sort of like a two axis swerve like a. Yeah, yeah. A sniper rifle on a. On a turret with a webcam. Pretty crazy. I don't know if this is real. I heard about this like years and years ago. Anyway, the reactions to The Meta and YouTube trial continue. Ariel Gribner says, Gibner says, this is disgusting. And I can't wait for the appeals, the precedent set by YouTube being liable for screen time addiction is kind of scary. Treating algorithms like a defective product opens the door to endless lawsuits over addictive tech. What's next? Books? Video games, Junk food? I mean, video games, we got to do something about those things are too. Too fun. Too fun. Truly. We got to make them. Except. Except you. You ascended. You beat your addiction. Yeah, I definitely did. You don't. You don't game anymore. You actually did. I mean, it might be one of those things, like you're still addictive, addicted. You just might have been playing a game earlier this week. Got sneaky little 45 minutes. Really? Yeah. No, yeah, it was good. Now, Claire obscura. I'm going to go. I'm going to go look. You got to pull me out. I'm addicted now. I'm going to go look back at our text and see, like, when did it take you 45 minutes to respond to something? It was like Tuesday night. Yeah. I'm going to be coming after Eric Jorgensen. Oh, yeah. The book of. Yeah. Because that just came out and Eric did a fantastic job. Yes. And I think it's highly addictive. We got it. Can we sue this lawyer? Because this is one of the most interesting cases and I actually can't pull myself away from it. And I feel like I'm just going to spend hours and hours reading about this lawsuit. Yeah. And. And I don't know, it's depressing. It's making me sad thinking about these tech companies having to pay fines and it's just ruining my mood entirely. And it was like, you can tell that the way the lawsuit was designed was designed to take an emotional toll on me. Suck me in, make me read all of the transcripts from the court, all the reporting, all the research, and eventually talk to Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University on my show about this. I just can't pull myself away from this doom loop. Yeah. I think. Should he be held accountable for what he's doing? I don't know. We'll see. But there might be a loss. Meta, of course, trading down massively today. Almost 9% off of this. And you know, there's some real concerns, Right. If they. There's new legal risk, there's thousands of other kind of lawsuits floating out there. You might get more copycat lawsuits, class actions. And then the real question is like, do they have to make any product level changes? Does that end up impacting time spent in the app, which will impact the advertising business? Such a weird one. Because certainly I don't think back throughout. Nasdaq is also down 2% today. So there's a general sell off but. Yeah, yeah, general sell off but like you know, meta, meta down dramatically. Hundreds of billions of dollars. Yeah. This is a weird one on a personal level because like on one hand, my kids. I'm going to keep away the infinite scroll machine as long as I possibly can. Right. And I will, you know, I don't think back on the time that I've spent on social media and think, you know, wow, I'm so glad I put in those, those long hours and I really put in the work. Yeah. It just doesn't seem that addictive to me. I can pull myself away like anytime. It's not a big. It's just not a big deal. We lost just sounds like it sounds this place. Okay. You just gotta get more. Ask you a question. If you follow me, I'll double your bank account on Instagram. Okay. I mean this is good content. Follow me me. This is the route you would have to take if you want to go to. This is my subscriber and this is my subscriber. This is such a. Hey, Jimmy. This is such a good. Yeah, fine. We're gonna get back to the show in a little bit. It's not a big deal. Not to surprise that college classroom. He grabbed 100 people. Okay. He took, he took people that are ages 1 all the way to 100 and he's having them taste test lunch late. I gotta watch this. Okay. It's the wall. The largest LED floor. No, this is just my normal feed. What's yours like? I am scrolling. It's so, it's so funny because it. I, I think, I think whatever that was was completely inverted from you know, a meditation soundtrack. Right. Like it's so insane. Anyway, let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB? Don't just power AI, don't just build AI own the data platform that powers it. And let me also tell you about Cisco. Sorry. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real time experiences new value with Cisco. Never apologize. The funny thing is how addictive are the apps themselves? Can they argue that the apps themselves. It's really not us. Yeah, right. I've seen some people's channels. Not very addictive. Yeah. You know, like it's in many ways like our, our content. Right. We talk about niche subjects in technology and business. There's a lot of content on YouTube that is far, far, far more addictive. Yeah. But yeah, no, I've generally had a good experience on social media. You know what else is addicting? What? High speed trains. Oh, you want to skip to high speed trains you don't want to do. We can come back to that. Okay, we can come back to that one. What's going on with this? So in China, high speed trains have become a sightseeing attraction. This is a good. I would definitely go to this. I would 100% just go see the high speed train rip through the countryside. That looks amazing. I love it. Also, this is the most incredible video of China that I've ever seen. So beautiful. What is it? What is this mountain range at sunset? I think people are posted up there even if the train isn't there. Yeah. It's like one of the most beautiful. You think that secretly everyone there is like, boo, the train ruined my beautiful view. Because like they could just be sitting there watching the amazing sunset and landing. That guy's leaning forward as. I think they're cheering. I think they're cheering. That's great. Where else do you want to go? We can go back to this article. Okay. Okay. Because I need to know where everyone stands. I need to know where do you stand on shoplifting? Are you pro or anti? Are you pro or anti? I'm anti. You're anti shopping. What about you? There we go. I had one moment as a kid when I think I took a piece of candy and my parents immediately took me back. I'm going to put you under citizens arrest right now. Yeah, it's time for citizens arrest. No, it took me back and I was like the most deeply embarrassing moment. That's like a core memory. Yeah. Of telling them, like. And I. And I think it was. It was at an age that I didn't really know that it was. Was wrong. But still. Well, that's not what's going on actually. So the Wall Street Journal wrote a piece about in free expression. Emma Camp wrote this op ed and there's a new generation of. It's the Campinator. There's a new generation of shoplifters who aren't children who should have learned their lesson long time ago but are actually fairly affluent and are just sort of sneaking out luxury. Good. I think that's a piece of it. But it was. But she makes a very compelling argument for why this is a very bad thing. We need to make skydiving more accessible. Okay. Like if skydiving was a dollar for the thrill, a dollar a dive. Yeah. I think a lot of people might say I'm just gonna go skydiving today. I don't. I'm not gonna steal anything. Well, I mean, Ben on our team is working on a new weather report or jet ski racing tour of thrilling things. Yeah, if we could make jet skis more accessible. Universal basic Jet ski. I like that. I think a lot of people would say, I don't have time to steal. Getting ready for the race. Yeah. My cortisol is super low. I don't need to spike it by sneaking something out. So at least once a week, as I begin my commute from home from a midtown Manhattan subway station, I see someone in a suit and tie dodge the fair. Well, it isn't always a suit. Sometimes it's a chunky J. Crew sweater and ballet flats. Each time I see the Fair Evader slip through an open emergency exit or casually hop over the turnstile a wave of outrage bubbles within me. Says emma Camp in the Wall Street Journal, free expression. And I consider shouting out after the shameless thief, you should do it. I am in favor of yelling at fair Dodgers in this case. But before I can work up the courage, he's melted into the crowd. It's tempting to give fairhoppers and shoplifters the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are all Jean Valjeans. Do you get that reference? No. Les Mis. You gotta see Les Mis. Jean Valjean is the pinnacle of morality. He steals a loaf of bread for his family because they're starving, goes to jail, gets revenge. It's a great film. You will love it. You should see it on the.

Frank was, I think, mentioning, I think at the end of last year and his point of view. He's the founder or the CEO of Ridge and he's like, okay, in two years, are people going to want new brands to choose from? And his point of view is like 100% right. Like there's constantly a desire for newness and that kind of founder led product development approach that made Salton Stone what it is today. So, yeah, what advice are you giving? I mean, honestly, like, I didn't read any entrepreneurial books or really listen to any like, entrepreneurial podcasts or anything until recently. I just went off instinct. Like, you gotta fight. We're fighting for our life. My advice would be, would be to go all in. Like, you can't, you can't go and be like, work, life, balance and like, I want to, you know, check out at 5 because like, there's gonna be someone right behind you that's gonna come and take, take your place and be that brand that comes in and does what you want to do. If you're going to just chill. Yeah. So it's like you got to, you got to make sure you love. You love it because that's the way you're going to be able to do it, you know, basically around the clock from the moment you go to sleep to wake up. You know, it's, it's something you got to love to do and it's got to be your passion. Right. And so you got to just, just go relentlessly and no, I would say, like, forget the work, life balance stuff. You just got to go hard. You got to go all in and just use your instincts. You know, you just gotta, you gotta be competitive and go after the big guys and don't be afraid and just go. You got to go for it. Go all in. Yeah. I like to focus on the actual incumbents. Like a lot of people will focus too much on.

Scroll or app level usage limits, like what are kind of like the extreme sort of downside scenarios for the platform. So there have been some states that have enacted mandatory warning labels like you're describing. Those are going to be subject to constitutional challenges. It's not clear to me that they're actually constitutionally permitted. For example, Texas's law has, I believe, been enjoined on that very point. So. So the warning label approach I don't think is likely to be the final resolution in any of any of the disputes here. I think that that's going to be an effort that probably isn't going to either solve a problem or be constitutional. It is already the case that states have passed laws that have done things like tried to ban auto scrolling or infinite scrolling or autoplay or the like button or like counts or whatever. States are going to get to that level of granularity and they're already doing so. Many of the things that are already part of social media features today are regulated by state laws that are on the books but possibly being in the process of being challenged. And I think the bigger question isn't will we lose our like button or will we lose infant scrolling? I think we would consider that for those of us who are aficionados of social media who think that there's some value to them, we would consider that to be maybe the best possible outcome. I think the more serious outcome is what social media services drop out of the industry entirely, what social media services add barriers to user populations having access to social media, and how much we see the circumscription of social media conversations entirely. In other words, I don't think we should assume that social media will exist in its current form in the future. The question is whether will he even have social media in the future. That, I think, are the stakes of the cases and the legislation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating what other industries have been through.

Said, we think that the social media services should be responsible and we should assign some pretty significant dollar values to that responsibility. Is 6 million seen as a significant dollar value in the courts because these companies are so big? But again, this could just be the beginning of a wave. Well, you could multiply it by potentially thousands. Yeah. So where does this go in terms of the damages as they snowball? Will there be a class action, some sort of master settlement that goes way bigger? Just about the numbers for a moment. $6 million is far less than what the plaintiffs requested. It's far more than I think the defendants had hoped. And as you were pointing out, if you Multiply it times 3,000 potential plaintiffs that are already in the queue, that translates into something on the order of like $20 billion. Again, maybe numbers that Meta and Facebook and Google have, but TikTok and Snap, if they're also going to be coming along for the ride, maybe they don't have that. Maybe that becomes uneconomic. So the numbers grow, I think, really rapidly because not only is it the people who've already filed, it's all the other potential users who will say, just like you were suggesting earlier, who will say, I've been addicted for five hours on my site, there could be tens of thousands of more plaintiffs coming through. The numbers on this could get extraordinary. Now, remember, this is only one data point. The other two bellwether cases could establish no liability, or they could assign much larger damages. And so we'll see if that 6 million is even the right number for the parties to start estimating the settlement. Sure. So will those other bellwether cases, for sure, resolve before this gets appealed? Do you anticipate that this ruling will get appealed all the way to the Supreme Court?

And what does it actually take to qualify a plaintiff? Do they just look at their screen time and say, like, oh, you use social media for five hours last week. You're addicted. And then they kind of figure out how to. How to kind of, you know, turn into a personal suit. There is no screening for who gets named as a plaintiff. They just raise their hand and say, I think I qualify. And they've been joining these lawsuits. The lawyers, of course, are helping them, and each trying to. Each lawyer is trying to add to their portfolio of plaintiffs that they have that they're representing. But whether they're actually going to get any recognition from the court or money, they'll have to make their case eventually. So that's part of why the trial was held that led to the verdict that came out this week. What they did in the California state court case is they said, we're going to pick three plaintiffs and we're going to do what are called bellwether trials. We're going to let the parties make their case to the jury, and we're going to see what the jury thinks the goal was to do three, not just one. With the idea that plaintiffs have so many different stories, the victims are each in their own unique situation, that we wanted to get multiple data representations from the pool of plaintiffs to start to be able to estimate the overall value of the case. So the first one came out and the jury agreed with the plaintiffs, did not agree with the defendants, and awarded $6 million of damages. Now, this is just the first data point of what's expected to be.

There's a general sell off but. Yeah, yeah, general sell off but like meta down dramatically. Hundreds of billions of dollars. Yeah. This is a weird one on a personal level because like on one hand, my kids. I'm going to keep away the infinite scroll machine as long as I possibly can. Right. And I will. I don't think back on the time that I've spent on social media and think, well, I'm so glad I. I put in those. Those long hours and I really put in the work. Yeah. It just doesn't seem that addictive to me. I can pull myself away like anytime. It's not a big deal. It's just not a big deal. We lost just sounds like it sounds this place. Enter Pixar Honeymoon. Okay, you just gotta get more. Can I ask you a question? If you follow me, I'll double your bank account. Well, on Instagram. Okay. I mean this is good. Follow me. This is the route you would have to take if you want to go to. This is my subscriber and this is my subscriber. This is such a. Hey, Jimmy. This is such a good. This is the final mystery box. This is fine. Yeah, it's fine. We're going to get back to the show in a little bit. It's not a big deal. Not the surprise at college classroom grabbed 100 people. He grabbed 100 people. Okay. He took. He took people that are ages 1 all the way to 100 and he's having them taste test lunch late. I gotta watch this. World's largest led. Okay. It's the wall. The largest LED floor. No, this is just my normal feed. What's yours like? I am scrolling, Mr. Beast. It's so. It's so funny because it. I. I think. I think whatever that was was completely inverted from you know, a meditation soundtrack. Right. It's just like make it. It's so insane. Anyway, let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market your business on MongoDB don't just power AI, don't just build AI.

We got it. Can we sue this lawyer? Because this is one of the most interesting cases and I actually can't pull myself away from it and I feel like I'm just going to spend hours and hours reading about this lawsuit. Yeah. And I don't know, it's depressing. It's making me sad thinking about these tech companies having to pay fines and it's just ruining my mood entirely. And it was like you can tell that the way the lawsuit was designed was designed to take an emotional toll on me. Suck me in. Make me read all of the transcripts from the court, all the reporting, all the research and eventually talk to Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University on my show about this. I just can't pull myself away from this doom loop. Yeah. I think should he be held accountable for what he's doing? I don't know. We'll see. But there might be a loss meta. Of course.

You're watching TVP Ad. Today is Thursday, March 20th, 26th. We are live from the TVP in Ultradom. The table of technology, the forbear finance Finance the capital of capital. Well, let me tell you about ramp.com time is money save. Both easy use, corporate cards, bill pay accounting and a whole lot more. Let me also pull up the linear lineup because we have a monster lineup. Jordy's back in the TVP and ultradom. I know you missed him. We have Eric Goldman coming on to help break down the meta YouTube lawsuit. By the way, yesterday was the first time we've been live that I was not on the air. Yeah. And so I was watching. How'd I do Here we can drop the linear lineup. Linear, of course is the system for modern software development. 70% of enterprise workspaces on linear are using agents. Give me a review. How did I do? I thought you did fantastic. I was texting you in real time. I probably sent you like 20 something messages of like asking about this, asking about that. It was. Yeah, somebody in the chat said I was free soloing TVPN and it was great. But we really bore it down to our last few, few associates here. Tyler was out, Jordy was out. Who else? Yeah, Nick was out. We were on what do they call it, a shoestring or something like that. I don't know. But it worked out. It was a fun show. It's not the same show without the soundboard. I was going to do this whole bit about like, oh yeah, I got it dialed. You can just. We don't need you on the show anymore. And then of course the fans would be like, no, bring back shorty and be like, yeah, okay, he's back. But I can't even joke about it because we need the soundboard. I only got. It really is musical. It really is. Imagine if you were. I was waiting for you to just be spamming that. Just sitting there having a serious interview. Apparently we have some audio issues. Okay, we will work. Bear with us. We're working on it. But I can go through, I can go through a bit of our guest lineup today. We have Nima friend of mine. He. He is a founder of Salt and Stone. Recently exited the business as of this week, a massive multi hundred million dollar deal. Very excited to get to understand the business better. We have John McNeil coming on. He's an author to talk about Elon Musk's five step algorithm for scaling Tesla. Then we have Kari from LINEAR on how linear is evolving in the AI age. And Then we have a bunch of different founders, including Mikey from suno coming on. Then we got back to back Zachs, Zach Kanter, Zach Perret, back to back Zacks. That's what I'd like to see. Well, the big news of the day, of the week, this has been going on all week is that arm, the intellectual property developer that creates intellectual property designs for CPUs, is now getting into the chip game. And they got a big ARM pump in the stock market. So the company is up 15% over the last few days on the news that they will sell their own chips. This is new for ARM. ARM's a very old company. Fascinating history. I actually made a 25 minute YouTube video all about the history of the company back in 2023. But we'll recap a little bit of it today. But they normally just license out their intellect property and that is a phenomenal business. 97% gross margins. 97% gross margins, yeah. Let's give it up. There we go. That's amazing. And you know, it's a big business. 4 billion in revenue last year. Nearly 800 million of net income. They're this new move. They're expecting to ramp revenue to $15 billion by 2031. So they're expanding the market significantly. Now margins will be different, but the market cap for ARM is now around 166 billion. So it's a big company. Trades at a very high 4 billion last year, currently trading at 165 billion, but very, very high gross margins. So this is a big shift in strategy. ARM is not an AI loser by any means, but it hasn't gotten the attention that other GPU makers have received like Nvidia. CPUs are far from dead though. In fact, we are in. We are currently in what seems like a little bit of a CPU crunch. Intel can't make CPUs fast enough. Nvidia is starting to sell their Grace CPU that goes with their hopper. So you get the H100 and you pair it with the Grace CPU. You get the GPU and the CPU all on one system. Well, now you can buy the CPU by itself if you're CPU constrained. So you don't want to just be GPU rich and CPU poor. You got to be rich in both camps. And a lot of companies are jumping in to fill this gap. So agents, and a lot of this is because of agents. Agents need CPUs. You need to fill the GPUs constantly with new data and tasks. Also, all of the agents use CPUs to make web queries, search the web, run Python, spin up web servers, interact with anything we've just seen. You know, we talked to some folks at Semianlysis about this. Like uptime is going down for non GPU accelerated workloads. Like you go to a SaaS product that is basically just a web server that's running on a CPU somewhere in a data center and you're like, ah, this thing isn't loading today. Or like there's downtime. And a lot of that's just because we're writing more software, we're using more software as a society, as a country and we need more CPUs as well as GPUs, even though GPUs are like the hot thing to talk about. So ARM has a very interesting backstory as I mentioned. You can go watch my 25 minute YouTube video about it. To go all the way back and all the precursor companies, it's a really long story, but you can think about it basically as a joint venture between three groups. Apple, Acorn Computer and vlsi. And so they needed to design a low power CPU for mobile devices. Before phones, you know what was hot? Jordy? PDAs. And have you ever seen a PDA, Tyler? No. You've never seen a PDA? I don't think so. Okay, so before the iPhone, you know, everyone had flip phones, but before. This is not a pager. It's not a pager. You don't know what this is either? No. Wow. So there's something called a PalmPilot and basically it was, it was like a, like a, you know, iPhone sized screen and it has stylus and you could write on it and you could make notes and PDA stood for Personal Digital Assistant. And I feel like that brand is just itching to come back in 2026. Like that's what so many people are. Everyone is working on. A pda? Yeah, Personal Super Intelligence assistance. There's a whole bunch of things we're building PDAs folks, they just live in the cloud and it's not a physical device. But these PDAs back in the 90s were physical devices. This was post pager, pre smartphone and it was the device that you carried to take notes and do things that you do today in apps you would do on your pda. But it wasn't always on Internet connected, none of that. It was a Palm Pilot. And this was like a fantastic business for a while, but there were a lot of problems with this because for the first time you needed a CPU that could live within a plastic shell. Basically these were like plastic enclosures needed to run a battery. It needed to be able to do some things, not crazy compute. But the CPU industry in the 90s was very focused on mainframes, servers, desktops. There were a few laptops popping up. But it was not the mobile phone revolution that's happening now where you have Apple Silicon chips. And those are of course based on ARM architecture. But that's where all this came from. People said, okay, we need a lower power chip that can actually run off a battery, not overheat and melt the plastic. Do all of this and it can be. Somebody can power a device that you carry with you as a personal digital assistant, a PDA. And so chicken in the chat says PayPal started on PDAs. That's right. That's right. So PayPal started. Originally, the idea was these PDAs had. They didn't have like Tap to Pay or anything like that. Rfid. They had basically the same device that you'd see on a TV remote, so ir. And it would flash a light that could be seen by another sensor. And if you flash the light at a certain rate, you can send a message. You can. Basically, it's like advanced. What's that SOS thing? Morse. Morse code. It's like a more advanced version of Morse code. And so you could send a specific packet of information from PDA to PDA. And this was the original idea for PayPal. That's correct. That's a great, great piece of lore. Tech lore. So the. So, you know, ARM starts to, you know, build these later. There's Robin Saxby, who is the CEO of ARM at the time. He wanted ARM to become the global standard for CPUs. And so in the 90s, there were lots of different CPU makers, lots of different architectures. There's this whole CISC versus RISC, there's the x86 architecture that intel pioneers. And slight differences in architectures can limit interoperability. You see this with what's going on with Mac, where a whole bunch of applications have needed to be rewritten for Apple Silicon. Because previously you would have an Intel Mac before we got to the M1, M2, M3, M4, M5 chips. Those are Apple Silicon, those are ARM based. And sometimes you'll go to a website and they'll be like, oh, do you want to download this for a Mac? Or what do you have? Do you have an Intel Mac or do you have an Apple Silicon Mac? Well, it's important because when you write the software that runs on the Mac. You need to use specific instruction sets. Now there are ways to abstract that and run on either. But there are lots of pieces of software that interact with the CPU at a low enough level that they need to be aware of the instruction set. So ARM sets out to be the global standard for CPUs and they create the Isaac, the instruction set architecture. And that ultimately let Apple design their own chips, but within the architectural guidelines set forth by arm. So Apple pays a license for to ARM for every chip Apple sells. It's a very small license fee because Apple does a lot of design work. They do the manufacturing. TSMC fabs it and like there's a million other pieces of the value chain, but for this one little slice they have to pay arm. And, and ARM just takes that and says thanks. Cool. You used our intellectual property successfully. You know who else says thanks? Who? Masayoshi Sohn. That's true. They own 90%, roughly 90% of the company. It was a full buyout in 2016. They bought the entire company for something around 25, 30 billion USD by the entire company. They still own 90% today. So they're like SoftBank's holdings just in that one company are somewhere in the range of 140 billion. When I was looking at it's the second half. And of course they've massively leveraged 100 billion. Well, and they've massively levered up against that position. They've raised debt against their holdings in arm. But certainly Mazda's somewhere out in the world seeing it go up 15%. Just happy smashing a gong. I hope so. I hope so. And although everyone knows Apple, my clickbait for my YouTube video was like, did you know the iPhone is secretly British? I think it's funny because it uses ARM deep inside. But ARM licenses to a ton of different tech companies. So Amazon uses ARM for the Graviton chips. A lot of Android phone makers have ARM based chips. Tons of other tech companies license ARM's technology to build chips. But now ARM is going to be making the chips themselves and they're going to be working with meta platforms and OpenAI. This means a shift in the economics of the business. So 97% gross margins for just those licensing ISA contracts. This will be closer to 50% but it but it should be offset by the huge gains in market size and revenue potential. So the company has one of the highest multiples in semiconductors, roughly 90 times forward earnings. So there's a lot to live up to. But there's a lot of value coming from AI agents that have access to plentiful CPU resources. The industry dynamics are also particularly interesting. Ben Thompson pointed this out in Strathery. So Nvidia sells an ARM based CPU that grace cpu. And so Nvidia is sort of competing with arm. Jensen showed up and gave like a remote talk at this ARM event where they announced this chip. And so they're competing but they're also in some ways working together because they're challenging x86 options from intel and AMD that are still really popular. And so if intel is constrained, it's like they're. If Nvidia sells a bunch of chips for, you know, AI workloads, well then that actually makes ARM more likely to sell their chips as well because whatever software is built for the Nvidia ARM based chips will probably run on the ARM ARM based chips. So there's some sort of like integration there. And the x86 moat is not as strong as the CUDA mode, but there's still this like dynamic of, of Nvidia and ARM are going up against intel and AMD in the same way that that different GPU makers are going up against the CUDA mode. So there's like this, all these different interactions there. But it'll all be interesting to follow. Let's move on. The big news that drove this was of course Meta Engineering at Meta said today we're announcing a new partnership with ARM to collaborate on the development of multiple generations of purpose built CPUs to support compute and AI infrastructure. ARM called it the ARM AGI CPU. What a great name. We love it. Let me tell you about Label Box. RL Environments, Voice Robotics, Data evals and expert Human data. Label Boxes, the data factory behind the world's leading AI teams. And let me also tell you about Sentry. Sentry shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps working. So the Wall Street Journal has another good write up of this story talking about how this, the timing is good, there is a boom in CPUs right now, but the stock is already priced very highly and everything has to go perfectly because it's. It trades at one of the highest multiples of all the semiconductor companies. So what else is going on in the timeline? Well, let's talk about this Data Center Moratorium bill. Yes, I wrote in the newsletter today. Yesterday Senator Bernie Sanders and AOC introduced a new bill, the AI Data Center Moratorium act of 2026 that if enacted, would require all current and planned data centers to halt construction, slash production. It would even block upgrading existing data centers. So if you have an asset and you want to make changes to it, in theory, as this bill is written today, it would be blocked. They sort of like define data centers based on power demands, cooling capabilities, like how much power you can get to each individual rack. So they have been fairly specific, but trying to be because I was thinking, I was fine with this. I was thinking like, I don't need any more AI data centers at this point. We can freeze those. I just want to build AGI, AGI data centers and ASI data centers. And so as long as I can just build tons of those like it should be fine. But it is interesting that they, they seem to have figured out the semantic loopholes that might happen if it's defined AI. Yeah. The bill would halt all new, new data center construction and upgrades until more legislation is put in place to guarantee the full following. And these will be tough to guarantee. So from Sanders site, they want AI to be safe and effective, preventing executives in the AI industry from releasing harmful products into the world that threaten the health and well being of working families, our privacy and civil rights, and the future of humanity. The economic gains of AI and robotics will benefit workers, not just the wealthy owners of big tech. And AI does not increase electricity or utility prices, harm communities or destroy the environment. So anyway, this stuff seems good. Yeah, all generally good. But no one wants safe and ineffective AI. Well, yeah, and the bigger problem is anytime you're creating, I don't think we've created a technology ever that didn't have some negative impact. Car crashes, example. I'm sure this will be rewritten and debated and obviously it has a long way to go before becoming law. But this set of requirements seems completely impossible to actually achieve. It depends on how you define it. I mean, AI does not increase electricity or utility prices like the rate payer protection pledge and behind the meter stuff could. I'm more talking about number one. Number one, safe and effective. I mean it's, it's all in how you define that. Some of the parental controls are a good example of how to take that overarching thesis and then boil it down into something tractable. And when I hear that I think, oh, I don't know how we are defining safe. I don't know how we're defining effective. This feels like this could be some sort of very vague thing where if one particular administration likes this company, they just approve it or not or whatever. But Then when we actually talk to lawmakers and you hear something like, oh, yeah, we're going to require parental controls. So if your OffSpring has an AI account, you can say, hey, they are this age. Don't show them anything that's inappropriate for that age. That seems good. Yeah. So I don't know, overall, at least this first bullet point, preventing executives in the AI industry from releasing harmful products in the world. Yeah, that feels like you could end up having something like an fda that's like every product you create needs to go through years of studies in order for the government. And it's like, hey, I just wanted to create like a slightly more AI native version of the SAS tool. Yeah. Do I really want to make SAS? I just want to make SaaS at the same time, like the, like the bull case. I mean, I think we're, I think the FDA model would really slow things down based on how long the FDA takes to approve things at the same time. What is the definition of harmful here? Is it net harmful products? Because that is the goal of the fda. They release drugs all the time that have side effects. You take this, it cures a cancer, but it's going to make you throw up or it's going to make you lose your hair. And people are like, yeah, I'll take that, I'll take that trade. And so, you know, if you, if you went through the government, you said, okay, yeah, I'm going to give you this tool that can like write code, but sometimes it's going to hallucinate. And like, you might get a code, you might get some code that doesn't pass tests. I'd be like, yeah, okay. Like, it speeds me up on, on average, I'm, I'm in. Like, that's fine. And having some of those disclosures. And it's the same thing with knowledge retrieval. Like, I do a deep research report, I get something that's 99% of the way there. Maybe there's something in there that's like, oh, that's actually like misattributed or that number's. I know that that number's from this report online that was wrong and the model doesn't. And so I need to fact check it. Like, I still see that as like, net beneficial, but there are of course, like, like flaws in every system. So, you know, again, it's like, where. How does this get defined over time? That's like, important. One thing I noticed from the announcement was that they are using AI leaders own statements against them. And it's easy to See how this would resonate with their constituents. This is really powerful. So they, on Sanders websites, he included this quote. In December, Elon Musk, who leads xi, said he had, quote, a lot of AI nightmares and would, quote, certainly slow down AI and robotics if he could. It's so interesting because Elon doesn't talk about that with like the rollout of electric cars or the rollout of, of space travel. He's not saying like, oh yeah, like, you know, 2030 is too soon to get to Mars. Like, we need to, we need to slow down on the, on the race to the moon. Like, let's really figure out the, the spacesuits first. You know, he's like, let's just go, yeah. And then another one. In January, Demis, the head of Google's DeepMind, said he would support an AI pause if he knew other countries and companies also paused development. In February, Dario Amade, the head of Anthropic, said he was absolutely in favor of trying to slow down AI development if other countries also slowed. Yeah, down. That was Davos, I believe. January, February. So continuing. Yeah, I wrote. But the problem, of course, is that there is zero movement on getting other countries to slow down. I can imagine some companies that would be like, there's already comments in the chat about like, yeah, let China win. Yeah. I'm not going to name the countries that would be down to slow down, but I think we all know that, that China, even if they agreed to something like this, wouldn't just automatically do anything about it. So. But the problem, of course. Are there any countries that are like, yeah, we, we definitely should, we're ready to slow down. Like, we're France. Well, I think if you're way behind, if you're way behind, there's kind of a benefit. Elon, Elon had said, I think in 2023 that he supported like a six month pause. Yeah. And at that, at that moment, that would have been awesome. Yeah. Because if I could just have six months to like get my get. I feel like, I feel like if you pull people in the south of France or the Amalfi coast, like those folks would say we should just slow down generally, like I. But also just slow down our lives, enjoy a glass of wine or even like a summer break. Just a summer break. Like four weeks. Yeah. Or even like during the workday, like taking a break, taking a nap, just taking, just slowing down generally. I think, I think there's a lot of people that are just in favor of that. Yeah. But okay, Jordi, like, if, if you're saying, like, people who are behind should want to, like, slow down. Like, does that mean that China should be more in favor of slowing down? That is interesting. That is. Well, I'm just saying I can imagine in the same way that, like, for as many chips as we give them, advanced GPUs, as we give them, you can assume they're still going to put an immense amount of pressure to kind of stimulate the local semiconductor industry in the same way here. I'm sure they would love for the United States to just pause all new data center construction. And I think it's possible that they would, like, generally say, like, yeah, like, this seems good, but then what would they actually do? They would just use that as an opportunity to catch up. Right. So my question is, like, where does China actually stand on this? I'd be very interested to know. Maybe you could look it up. Like, has the Chinese Communist Party actually put out any statements about whether they want to accelerate or pause AI development? Because I think that they might refrain from. From taking that stance because it would discourage local, like, indigenous development. Like, if the government is coming out and saying, like, we want to slow down, then a lot of entrepreneurs are going to be like, okay, I'll go back to E Commerce or I'll go back to manufacturing. Like, I'm not going to work on this because the government doesn't want me to. And. And so I feel like there's this tug and like, even though I agree with you, like, what we would be in their advantage to say, hey, we want to slow down. Everyone should slow down. We're pro slowdown. If they actually said that, it would have an immediate slowdown effect on the local AI progress. Does that make sense? Yeah, like, it would slow down. Yeah. I mean, yeah, because even. Even if they. Even if they. If they just take that stance because it's an authoritarian country, like, there's like this, like. Like the Bernie Sanders comments stands in opposition to other politicians who are saying, like, no, actually, things are going well, and here's how we're going to, you know, like, advance energy and to build more. And so, but if you don't have that and it comes down as, like, a dictate or, you know, like, this is the stance from the government. It's much harder for local entrepreneurs and local AI labs to, like, push back against that because it feels like they're all of a sudden in opposition to the government, I would imagine. I don't know. I'm very interested to hear how China's actually. Yeah, Anyway, so just to kind of finish my thought, yeah, all these quotes, like, must go extremely hard if you're not kind of acknowledging the full picture, which is that the AI leaders are saying, yeah, if you get other countries to agree to slow down, we'd be open to it. But that is like the big elephant in the room. They don't mention any even conversations or dialogue with other countries around slowing down. And I don't think there's been any. So anyways, the act has a long way to go and it seems like the odds of it getting into law are low, but not zero. Safe to say that as written, the requirements in the bill would be an incredible gift to America's adversaries and catastrophic for overall AI progress. Yeah, could be popular, though. There are already some candidates who have, you know, made pausing AI or data center, like pausing data center build outs sort of like their main thing. And it does seem to be getting traction. I don't know how much of that's just on social media. We'll see how it shows up in the midterms. But Sagar and Jetty was tracking this for a long time. Like, it's going to be a, like a political stump speech that hits. Like, people are going to be like, yeah, I don't like this stuff. Yeah. The question becomes, if anything like this were to become law, what are the effects of that? Right. Space. Right. The space data center people are saying, like, yeah, we were talking about space data centers. Don't seem so silly now. Yeah. Taking that angle. Although I'm sure they would also be like, you can't put them up there either. We're going to, we're going to try. Yeah. I mean, there's also, there's also just like the globalization process that happened based around environmentalism in like the 90s WTO ascension for China. Like, the reason that a lot of the mining happened in China is because, like we said, like, we don't want that here. Right. It's dirty, it's gross. There's chemicals, there's pollution. And so, like, out of sight, out of mind. Let's push it abroad. And we could do that again with data centers. We could just be like, they're all in Canada or Mexico or they're all in some, you know, Australia or New Zealand or like, you know, there could be a receptive country out there that just is like, we would love, we are an ally now and we'd love to get all these data centers. And then you have to ask the question of, like, what does that look like in 30 years, data centers generate a. They don't create a lot of jobs locally. They create a meaningful amount of work during the development process. And certainly some jobs, they continue to generate massive amounts of tax rev. Local tax revenue. Yeah, I actually don't know how you tax the data center that blocked, I think in New Jersey was going to be generating like tens of millions of dollars of local taxes. Seems pretty good. Yeah, yeah, it seems great. If real estate or I mean, yeah, like one, one medium ground here is like just tax that and then have. And then use the tax revenue. Yeah. The environmental concerns, I think everybody should want to make sure that if we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars into these things that we're not destroying our lovely Mother Earth. And the energy costs, again, real concern, but we're making progress there. Well, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops buying breaches. And let me also tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Do we want to talk about this? Oh, this, this minor headline on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, it says, Meta, YouTube found addictive, harmful. It's like one of the hardest hitting headlines I've ever seen on the front of the Wall Street Journal. For two companies that are usually relegated to the business and finance section, they made it to the front page because they were found guilty or you know, by California jurors. California jurors say the tech companies designed their apps to cause injury to kids. Very, very bad. But Brandon Gorell had a take and a write up and some explanation of what's actually going on here. And then we are of course having Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University come on and break it down for us in more detail because there is a lot of debate about this and it's been very interesting watching it play out. The total damages are I think 3 million. Each company, roughly 6 million total. And I had a friend who's a lawyer who texted me and sent me the number and was like, hey, I'm predicting that It'll be like 3M. And I didn't read the M. And I was like, okay, 3 billion. Like what did that do? This is not that big of a deal. And then it was 3 million. And I was like, that's extremely low compared to like the numbers that we normally see from big tech companies. But this has much broader implications because this is precedent setting and there will be a flood of other exact cycles. I did spend all of my free cash flow on data centers. But if you give me another two seconds, I will have the cash flow to cover this. So just give me like two seconds. Yes, but it is a very important case, even though this particular ruling is not changing the cash flow structure of these businesses because it has a lot of ramifications and there's a lot more plaintiffs that are in the queue. So this is what Brandon Gorell wrote in our newsletter today, which you can sign up for@tvpn.com Yesterday a Los Angeles jury found both Meta and YouTube. It's fantastic. I want a lot of soundboard for this. Both Meta and YouTube liable for a 20 year old woman's mental health crisis. In a bellwether trial that treated platforms as quote, defective products and potentially marks the end to the absolute immunity nature of section 230 in the case, the plaintiff's lawyer, Mark Lanier argued that meta and YouTube built quote, digital casinos that use neurobiological techniques similar to those employed by slot machines. Fun fact about arm throwback. The first chip that the company, the precursor company ever built was a chip that went into a slot machine. They call them fruit machines in England. Fruit machines. Fruit machines. They call them fruit machines because they have like the cherries and the strawberries and the bananas and you line them up and they needed chips to run those. So the iPhone traces its lineage and Apple silicon and all this goes much deeper than that. It all goes back to literally gambling. Very fascinating. Anyway, so the jury found that specific features ofMea and YouTube are designed to be addictive. Infinite scroll creates an environment where there are no natural stopping points. Algorithmic recommendation users feeds users highly engaging content. Autoplay removes users agency in choosing whether or not to watch the next video. Notifications pull users back in by exploiting their need for validation. Instagram beauty filters contributed to the plaintiff's body dysmorphia. Features like the like button exploit users biological need for societal approval. This is what the lawyer argued. The plaintiff's lawyer argued Shake Shack exploited my biological need for food. Yes, there is this question. There was Taylor Lorenz had some great takes here. She said so Taylor has come out in the last like 48 hours. I would say is like the number one defender of big technology. Yeah, she does have one of the top she had in the world. She had a, she had, she had a take that was like. So does Spotify. Did Spotify addict you to music by playing like good songs for you on demand? And, and this DJ this, this AI DJ is simply too good. I mean that's kind of the argument. They didn't obviously go after Spotify, they went after meta and YouTube. But yeah, there's a question about like, you know, what UI features, what are dark patterns and how do we regulate those? And it's very interesting, but the decision has been made and these companies will have to pay $6 million to the plaintiff in total damages. This is obviously a trivial amount of money for these companies. But the bellwether nature of the outcome has significant implications for social media. There are over 10,000 individual personal, personal injury cases, almost 800 school district claims and 40 state level cases pending nationwide that are similar to KGM versus Meta and YouTube. More broadly, the social media industry's reliance on Section 230 which has up to now shielded them from liability for user generated content, may no longer be enough to protect them from litigation like this. Now to be clear, this case is not, it's not attacking Section 230 because it's not making the argument that someone uploaded a video to YouTube that said you should be sad, you should be afraid it's over and that made someone sad. That is the content that is user generated that is protected under section 230. You might be able to go after the individual creator of that video. If I make a video that says like Jordy Hayes sucks and should be sad and then you get sad, you might be able to sue me I think, I don't know. But that's a little bit more defensible because it's like me on YouTube. But you won't be able to sue YouTube for platforming that content, for putting that up in just general cases. But this is different because they went after the like button, the infinite scroll, the recommendation feeds, the features that are built by the platforms themselves. So if the decision makes it through appeals and this might go all the way to the Supreme Court, we'll see. Platforms may be forced to redesign their user experiences and algorithms, put up age verification, even deprecate Infinite scroll. Obviously changes like this would have an effect on both these platforms. Ad based revenue models Meta and Google plan to appeal the decision and it's not hard to imagine this one making it to the Supreme Court. Taylor's also been sort of sounding the alarm bells around age verification. It sounds very good. I feel like I'm pro age verification based on like I have kids and I don't want them seeing adult content. But she was worried about the KYC and needing to be tracked, privacy tracking anywhere. And that Is a good argument to be made. Well, let me tell you about graphite code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. And let me also tell you about 11 labs. Build intelligent, real time conversational agents. Reimagine human technology interaction with 11 labs. We have to start apologizing to the schizophrenic community. There is a surveillance drone reportedly flown by infiltrator elements and disguised as a natural bird, such as an eagle, that has been spotted in Iran. This goes back to Taylor Ryan's because I believe she worked with the folks behind the viral stunt. Birds aren't real. That was sort of a commentary on the conspiratorial nature of the Internet. And in that stunt they make the argument that birds need to be recharged and they're all spying on you. And no birds are real. Of course that is very satirical and funny, but apparently someone made a drone. Some organization made a drone that looks like a bird so it can sneak behind enemy lines and spy during the conflict, which is remarkable. But do you think there will ever be video games that are effectively. You're just remote piloting something in the real world? Yes. Do you think there would be demand for. Yes. So I have heard of this years and years ago that there was something along the. Along those lines that would allow you to hunt remotely. So you go to a website and you control a weapon that can hunt an animal. Which is crazy. I don't know if it's. That's crazy. But do they close the loop, like help you actually get. Yes, yes. They. So after you down the animal, they will go and ship it to you so you can mount it on your wall. Thanks. A lot of people sort of. Sort of. A lot of people are not gonna like that. I don't think Joe Rogan would approve. He's a bow hunter, you know. Yeah. He wants to watch the connectivity with. I think so. I think so. It's destroying. Destroying. Just destroying the. Now I'm curious. Is it. Is it like a. Is it. Is it like a. Is it a gun mounted to an atv? Not an atv, but sort of like a two axis swirl? Like a turret? Yeah, like a sniper rifle on a. On a turret with a webcam. Pretty crazy. I don't know if this is real. I heard about this like years and years ago. Anyway, the reactions to The Meta and YouTube trial continue. Ariel Gribner says, Gibner says this is disgusting. And I can't wait for the appeals. The precedent set by YouTube being liable for screen time addiction is kind of scary. Treating algorithms like a defective product opens the door to endless lawsuits over addictive tech. What's next? Books? Video games? Junk food? I mean, video games, we got to do something about those things are too. Too fun. Too fun. Truly. We got to make them. Except. Except you. You ascended. You beat your addiction. Yeah, I definitely did. You don't. You don't game anymore. You actually did. I mean, it might be one of those things, like you're still addictive, addicted. You just might have been playing a game earlier this week. Got sneaky little 45 minutes. Really? Yeah. No, yeah, it was good. Now, Claire obscura. I'm going to go. I'm going to go look. You got to pull me out. I'm addicted now. I'm going to go look back at our text and see, like, when did it take you 45 minutes to respond to something? Maybe it was like Tuesday night. Yeah. I'm going to be coming after Eric Jorgensen. Oh, yeah. The Book of. Yeah. Because that just came out and Eric did a fantastic job. Yes. And I think it's highly addictive. We got it. Can we sue this lawyer? Because this is one of the most interesting cases and I actually can't pull myself away from it. And I feel like I'm just going to spend hours and hours reading about this lawsuit filings. Yeah. And. And I don't know, it's depressing. It's making me sad thinking about these tech companies having to pay fines and it's just ruining my mood entirely. And it was like, you can tell that the way the lawsuit was designed was designed to take an emotional toll on me. Suck me in, make me read all of the transcripts from the court, all the reporting, all the research, and eventually talk to Eric Goldman from Santa Clara University on my show about this. I just can't pull myself away from this doom loop. Yeah. I think. Should he be held accountable for what he's doing? I don't know. We'll see. But there might be a loss meta, of course, trading down massively today. Almost 9% off of this. And you know, there's some real concerns. Right. If they. There's new legal risk, there's thousands of other kind of lawsuits floating out there. You might get more copycat lawsuits, class actions. And then the real question is like, do they have to make any product level changes? Does that end up impacting time spent in the app, which will impact the advertising business? Such a weird one, because certainly I don't think back throughout Nasdaq is also down 2% today. So there's a general sell off but. Yeah, yeah, general sell off but like meta down dramatically more than that. Hundreds of billions of dollars. Yeah. This is a weird one on a personal level because like on one hand my kids. I'm gonna keep away the infinite scroll machine as long as I possibly can. Right. And I will, you know, I don't think back on the time that I've spent on social media and think, you know, wow, I'm so glad I put in those, those long hours and I really put in the work. Yeah. It just doesn't seem that addictive to me. I can pull myself away like anytime. It's not a big deal. It's just not a big deal. We lost just sounds like it sounds this place. Okay. You just gotta get more. Ask you a question. If you follow me, I'll double your bank account. Well on Instagram. Okay. I mean this is good content. Follow me. This is the route you would have to take if you want to go to. This is my subscriber and this is my subscriber. This is such a. Hey, Jimmy. This is such a good. Yeah, fine. We're gonna get back to the show in a little bit. It's not a big deal. I'll be surprised. At college classroom he grabbed 100 people. Okay. He took. He took people that are ages 1 all the way to 100 and he's having them taste test lunch late. I gotta watch this. Okay. It's the wall. The largest LED floor. No, this is just my normal feed. What's yours like? I am scrolling. It's so. It's so funny because it. I think, I think whatever that was was completely inverted from you know, a meditation soundtrack. Right. It's just like. It's so insane. Anyway, let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB? Don't just power AI, don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. And let me also tell you about Cisco. Sorry. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real time experiences new value with Cisco. Never apologize. The funny thing is how addictive are the apps themselves? Can they argue that the apps themselves. Yeah, it's really not us. Yeah, right. I've seen some people's channels. Not very addictive. Yeah. You know, like it's in many, in many ways like our, our content. Right. We talk about niche subjects in technology and business. There's a lot of content on YouTube that is far, far, far more addictive. Yeah, but yeah, no, I've generally had a good experience on social media. You know what else is addicting? What? High speed trains. Oh, you want to skip to high speed trains you don't want to do. We can come back to that. Okay, we can come back to that one. What's going on with this? So in China, high speed trains have become a sightseeing attraction. This is a good. I would definitely go to this. I would 100% just go see the high speed train rip through the countryside. That looks amazing. I love it. Also, this is the most incredible video of China that I've ever seen. So beautiful. What is it? What is this mountain range at sunset? I think people are posted up there even if the train isn't there. Yeah, that's like one of the most beautiful. You think that secretly everyone there is like, boo, the train ruined my beautiful view. Because like they could just be sitting there watching the amazing sunset and landscape and that guy's leaning forward as. Yeah, I think they're pumped up. I think they're cheering. I think they're cheering. That's great. Where else do you want to go? We can go back to this article. Okay. Okay. Because I need to know where everyone stands. I need to know where do you stand on shoplifting? Are you pro or anti? Are you pro or anti? I'm anti. You're anti shopping. What about you? There we go. I had one moment as a kid when I think I took a piece of candy and my parents immediately took me back. I'm going to put you under citizens arrest right now. Yeah, it's time for citizens arrest. No, it took me back and I was like the most deeply embarrassing moment. That's like a core memory. Yeah. Of telling them, like. And I, and I think it was. It was at an age that I didn't really know that it was. Was wrong, but still. Well, that's not what's going on, actually. So the Wall Street Journal wrote a piece about in free expression. Emma Camp wrote this op ed and there's a new generation of. Yes, the Campinator. There's a new generation of shoplifters who aren't children, who should have learned their lesson long time ago but are actually fairly affluent and are just sort of sneaking out luxury. Good. I think that's a piece of it. But she makes a very compelling argument for why this is a very bad thing. We need to make skydiving more accessible. Okay. Like if skydiving was. Was a dollar for the thrill. A dollar a Dive. Yeah. I think a lot of people might say, I'm just gonna go skydiving today. I don't. I'm not gonna steal anything. Well, I mean, Ben on our team is working on a new weather report or jet ski racing of thrilling things. Yeah, we could make jet skis more accessible. Universal basic jet ski. I like that. I think a lot of people would say, I don't have time to steal. I'm getting ready for the race. Yeah, my cortisol is super low. I don't need to spike it by sneaking something out. So at least once a week, as I begin my commute from home, from a midtown Manhattan subway station, I see someone in a suit and tie dodge the fair. Well, it isn't always a suit. Sometimes it's a chunky J. Crew sweater and ballet flats. Each time I see the Fair Evader slip through through an open emergency exit or casually hop over the turnstile, a wave of outrage bubbles within me. Says Emma Camp in the Wall Street Journal, free expression. And I consider shouting out after the shameless thief, you should do it. I am in favor of yelling at fair Dodgers in this case. But before I can work up the courage, he's melted into the crowd. It's tempting to give fairhoppers and shoplifters the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are all Jean Valjeans. Do you get that reference? No. Les Mis. You got to see Les Mis. Jean Valjean is the pinnacle of morality. He steals a loaf of bread for his family because they're starving, goes to jail, gets revenge. It's a great film. You will love it. You should see it on the. In a theater because it is, of course, a live stage production many times. But there's also a bunch. There's also a great movie with Liam Neeson. The Liam Neeson one is the one you want to see. There you go. But Liam Neeson, les mischievous is amazing. I think I have that right. But. But that's far from the truth. Well, according to one 2025 survey, and this was what was interesting about this article, the likelihood that someone would purposefully take an item at self checkout without scanning actually increased with income. So the rich get richer. The rich are stealing from the rich. A viral article in Curbed, a site published by the New York Times Magazine. By New York Magazine, paints a vivid picture of this kind of thief, a member of a certain subset of the city's wealthy. Ish, as writer Nora Delighter puts it, for whom a little shoplifting on your grocery run has become as about as mundane as jaywalking. This isn't exactly surprising. A report from the Council on Criminal justice released earlier this year found that while reported shoplifting decreased during the pandemic, rates have returned to roughly Wait, did they just decrease because people were ordering groceries online? I think so. I think so. If you're not in the store, you can't steal anything. You got to hack the system or something. It becomes a cybercrime to steal from. Doordash. The rates have since returned roughly to pre pandemic levels. This New York magazine profile in Curbed Profiles several shoplifters who were caught stealing from Whole Foods. None were acting out of necessity, and most stole what can accurately be described as luxury goods. $30 eye cream, strip steak, fancy organic chocolate. None expressed guilt, and one explicitly justified her actions as being in a kind of artist's subsidy. Petty theft is a vice for a certain kind of loser. Go off. Emma Camp I love this. Many of those profiled in this article are creative types. Photographers, graphic designers, sculptors, and musicians. Presumably, these people are highly educated but downwardly mobile. They steal because they feel entitled to the kind of life where they can thoughtlessly drop $50 on French cheese and sushi rolls while paying Manhattan rent. That they can't indulge in such luxuries feels to them like a moral outrage, one that can be rectified in some small ways by taking what's owed to them. When shoplifters justify their actions online, they make themselves out to be Robin Hoods. They claim it's good to steal from large and therefore evil corporations. This is a teenager's leftism, one in which fighting the man means ripping him off. It's a post hoc justification for a baser impulse, the belief that everything you want should be free. This motivation is made particularly clear when people justify fair evasion, given that public transportation is inherently not a big private enterprise. It's not a mega corp. It's it's, you know, taxpayer dollars that you're stealing from. Even when we grant Even when we grant the assumption that large companies are inherently evil, which, for the record, I don't, says Emma Camp in the Wall Street Journal, that doesn't justify stealing from them. If thou shalt not steal doesn't work for you, consider another argument. Petty theft damages the institutions and businesses in a community, making them materially worse for your neighbors. You may think you aren't hurting anyone. Actually, you're hurting everyone. Businesses hike prices to make up for shoplifting losses. Have you heard of like loss? It's called like loss rates or something. Like every retail store just assumes that they're going to get 20% or 5% or something. Yeah, I don't think it's. It could be high. It could be high in some stores, like significant amount of merchandise just like gets loss prevention is like the term that they focus on. But it's like a constant problem for these businesses and they have thin margins. People don't realize. I think people think like grocery stores because like you go and check out it's 100 bucks or something. It's like they're making a ton of money but like the margins are very, very thin on those. Yeah, it's not. It's not. It's not arms. They're not licensing IP to Apple. They may even close public transportation crumbles without sufficient revenue from riders. As journalist Kelsey Piper put it in a post on X when you shoplift, you directly and unambiguously impoverish your community. That bar of chocolate you swiped isn't nothing. That little pot of eye cream you slipped into your purse is more than a rounding error on a corporate balance sheet. What you're doing ultimately creates a worse, less functional, less trustworthy society. And even shoplifters need a place to get groceries. Yeah, the comment section is agreeing with Emma. He said. Well said. And I'll extend it. But beyond just shoplifting to include things like buying something with the intent of returning it after using it for a few days. I remember someone buying a grill at Lowe's with the intent of using it for the weekend and then returning it. Which they did. Okay. Yeah, just didn't. Steaks didn't really come out that well. I don't think it was me. I think it was the grill. I'm not a big returns guy. Costco does have a huge return policy. Yeah, it's so. It's so interesting. The. The Coogan or the Hayes mind cannot comprehend the return. Like it's. I've maybe returned two things in the last 10 years. It's just not an impulse that I have. Because you're deeply in touch with everyone. So funny. Anyways, we can. Okay, let me tell you about TurboPop serverless vector in full text search built from first principles on object storage. Fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. And let me also tell you about Gemini3.0 point with a more capable baseline. It's great for super complex tasks like visualizing difficult concepts, synthesizing data into a single view, and bringing creative projects to life. And thank you, the clapping in the studio is at an all time high now that we're back to full strength in the TVP and ultradome. So that's right. Will Menidis is giving some more context around anti AI backlash. He says in case you're skeptical that anti AI backlash will become a safe, central issue in the next election cycle, Sanders just introduced a bill to halt all new data center construction and require the federal government to review and approve AI products before release. Interestingly, this idea of an AI fda, the first time I heard about this concept was on the all in podcast. I believe Chamath Palihapitiya was making the point that an AI FDA was something worth considering. I think he's evolved his position, but it was something that, you know, the first time you learn about, like the possibility of a fast takeoff, the possibility of AI doom. It seems really rational to say, well, let's review everything beforehand. But then there's natural effects and there's limitations to the models and we can't even do a puzzle on rkgi. So maybe there's a little bit more work to be done, maybe there's a few more data centers to build before we actually get good things out of these models. But Noah Smith wrote a piece that I think is relevant to the data center moratorium, which is. AI has the worst sales pitch I've ever seen. His quote, our product will make you economically useless and possibly kill you, says it's not a value proposition. AI leaders need to change their public messaging and fast. We don't need to read through all this. But he opens in this quote, Hi, do you have a moment? I'm from the Cursed Microwave Company. Our product is much better than a traditional microwave. Not only can it automatically and perfectly cook all your food, it also microwaves your whole body. So you and your family are paralyzed and unable to work ever again. Don't worry, though, because when everyone has a cursed microwave, our society will probably implement universal basic income and you and your children can just go on welfare. Oh, by the way, we estimate that there's a chance, 2 to 25% chance that our microwaves will put so much radiation, will put out so much radiation that they destroy the entire human race. If a door to door salesman came and gave me this pitch, I would gently see him out the door and then quickly call the FBI. But this is only a modestly exaggerated version that the pitch of the pitch that the big AI labs OpenAI and Anthropic are making to the world about their technology. And I completely agree with this. It's very. It's very Important that AI lab leaders, you know, focus on the actual tangible benefits of the, of the technology right now. Like, I think there's this, you keep, you keep identifying this disconnect between like, like people are afraid of AI and there's so much fear based marketing. But then like every single person, like a billion people are just using ChatGPT to like get answers. And every person you talk to, no matter how they can, they can tell you for 20 minutes, lay out a very cogent thesis of AI doom, what might happen. Terminators, they can take you on this very reasonable scenario and then five minutes later the topics changes and they'll tell you how they use ChatGPT to plan their vacation or something like that. And this disconnect just cannot last. Yeah. I wrote on January 9. The phrase tech lash was originally coined by Adrian Wooldridge and the Economist in 2013. He correctly predicted that the big developments of 2014 will be the growing peasants revolt against the sovereigns of cyberspace. The silicon elite will cease to be regarded as geeks who happen to be filthy rich and become filthy rich people who happen to be geeks. Over the coming years, the world experienced the Cambridge Analytica scandal, fear around the mental health impacts of social media on young people, and growing concerns around monopoly power in our digital world. The Internet and the platforms that dominated began to test the core foundations of our country and the free world. Privacy, democracy, censorship, and more. The second tech clash has begun, this time because the average American believes that technology, specifically AI, is now a threat to their very way of life. Starting at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Americans have heard the data centers use a lot of water. They heard their power bill is probably going to go up because of it, or already have. They've seen the movie Terminator and have imagined how that might go from science fiction to reality. Watch Terminator. You still haven't seen it, right? No, I have seen Terminator. You have? Have you seen Terminator 2? Probably not killing me, John. It's enough to ask me to finish one movie. Now you're like, oh, you gotta see two. Two is. Two is the best one, I think. But the end of Terminator, it's a good ending. The humans win. We beat the robots. Yeah. It's a good outcome. You gotta push back on that. No, I was gonna add. So earlier we were talking about like China and like, how is China? Thinking about some stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, I found some. Okay, tell us. Okay, so Xi Jinping is like, if you basically compare like Chinese government to US Government, Chinese government, is probably, like, much more concerned about safety than the US is. Okay. Like, there's all these things, like, so Xi Jinping. We don't want to. We don't want other people to be able to do surveillance as well as we. Yeah. Because. Yeah, there's always like the take, which is like. Yeah. You know, if you're super concerned about safety. Well, what does that mean? You need these. This oversight over everything. Right. Which is like, if you're trying to. You want to be carrying. That's like the thing you're going to do. Yep. But basically he was like. He chaired this. It was from time, a rare politburo study session on AI warning of unprecedented risks. It's listed safety is listed alongside pandemics and cyber attacks in their national emergency response plan. He's also said, he stressed the need for monitoring early risk warning and emergency response. Right. So it's like. Sure, that's like, about safety, but also. Yeah, you know, monitoring. Right. No, no, no. It's kind of. I wonder. I wonder how this interfaces with the Bernie Sanders position. Like, will there be some sort of, like, open discussion? You know, Bernie's going around doing a lot of different conversations. That would certainly be like the next step if he wants to get through the, you know, the geopolitical pushback. Even when you talk to a lot of, like, the policy people, very few of them are like, ever really say the US needs to pause. Regardless of what China does, it's always like, we need to have international, you know, agreement. Yeah. Because otherwise, like, it obviously doesn't work. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. If everyone could just give their GPUs to Tyler, he will watch after them. He can be trusted. He can be trusted. He can be trusted. Yes. Anyways, yeah. So this story will continue to evolve. Info. Thank you. Rune hit 300K. He says time to docs on TVPN. Okay, let's do it. 300K. Let's go. Congratulations. Boom, boom, boom, boom. I guess we hit the gong at 252 every. Every time. Every time there's a Rune milestone, we must celebrate it to the fullest really quickly. Let me tell you about cognition. They're the makers of Devon, the AI software engineer. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. And let also tell you about console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of it. HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution to access requests and passive resets. Continue. Let's pull up one of the greatest videos created in the last year. Spore says rip sor you gave us the greatest AI video of all time. Yes. Let's play it. This was a great video. I did enjoy this. One sound, please. Yeah, you stop that. It's midnight. Give me that. No, sir. No more fiddle tonight. Got it? No more fiddles. Hey, what did I say about the noise? It's the middle of the night. No more stints on the porch. The door cam, the Sora model. I don't know what the. What was in the training data, but it nailed this, like, doorbell footage. Like, the graininess really leans into the flaws and it hides the flaws in the model. When you try and do something that's photoreal, it looks a little waxy still, but this is just perfect. And it's too. It's too low res to detect, like, oh, the finger's perfect, or whatever. That's a good instrument. That's fun. She really hits the cat with that door. It's absolutely insane. Yeah, well, the didgeridoo. Oh, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Human creativity. You had to string all these together. This was not one shot. This is like. This is like, you know, 10 prompts. I've done it. I. I've gone to ChatGPT and said, like, think of a funny prompt and it doesn't come up with something as novel as this. Otherwise I would be the creator of that. Hey, that's our gong. That's literally our gong. Our former gong. Yeah, it's nice. We made it into the training data. Silent disco before 3am okay, good. I love it. Yeah, the Sora. The Sora news is interesting. I mean, obviously good as a reflection on, like, okay, era of focus. We heard that news from, like a week ago. This is like a very clear step in, like, refocusing. There is a question about, like, the value of models. Like, Sora jumped ahead of Meta Vibes very quickly. Meta Vibes launched like a week before. And when Sora came out, the consensus was like, oh, wow. This is like, definitely a step above what you can do with Vibes, which was much more like an animated picture from midjourney. It had cool, cool aesthetics, but it was way less. It was very constrained in terms of what you could do with Sora. You could automatically insert different cuts, generate something that looked a lot more like a native real, even if there were sort of rough edges. But the question with every model is, you know, you spend money to train it, and then it has ongoing inference costs. The cost of a video model, it feels immense because I went back and looked at some of the first Sora videos that I generated. I'm thinking of me in the orange and white suit. Yes. One of the greatest AI videos. We'll have to play it at some point. But that, that one felt like it had about a thousand times as much compute allocated to it than the last one that I generated because I generated a Sora like a week before this announcement. And it does feel like they had shifted the GPU workloads to other to maybe codecs because that was the product that was taking off. What do you think? There were some rumors where they were spending something like 10, $15 million a day on compute for just for Sora, which is like, you know, like three and a half billion a year or something. Something in this range. Yeah. So it's like so much compute just on inference and it's like, yeah. What's the actual value? Yeah, yeah. And if it's not monetizing with crazy ad rates immediately or crazy API costs like, like you just, you're just in GPT2 territory where Greg Brockman came on and told us that, you know, I don't know, they spent probably millions of dollars train GPT2. And they were like, we had to pay people to use it. Like every dollar of inference was negative margin. We were losing money on every token generated. And then GPT3 was in a similar boat. It was like almost there, but they weren't really making any money for it. And then the GPT4 training run happens. And that, I mean, looking back, that has to be an incredibly profitable model because I think it maybe cost $100 million to train. And then the inference cost, like they distilled the model pretty quickly, got to a place where I think that was very, very ROI positive based on the subscriptions during that time before they rolled out five. And then you're always facing this battle of a little bit of a red Queen's race training the new model, depreciating the model across whatever the inference margin you get during the period where you have the best model. Mitchell Green went on Invest like the best and Patrick. Patrick pulled out one of lead. He said Lead Edge is probably most famous for this letter. Mitchell calls it the hierarchy of bs. It's his way of distilling what he learned from cold calling 10,000 companies. And I will go through it. If companies have good cash profits, they report those. If companies don't have good cash profits, they report on adjusted profits. If companies don't have good adjusted profits, they report on gross profits. If companies don't have good gross profits, they report on revenue. If companies don't have good revenue, they're reported on adjusted revenue indicators like gmv.