NEWSMAX

It's unpredictable. But how are you working through it? I think, you know, one thing you could say is, like, what are the problem sets and areas that, like, the smartest AI people want to work on? And, like, don't do that. Okay, so, like, that's a good point. Like, don't do coding. Yeah. Like, after it seems like AI researchers really like AI for science. So, like, don't do that. Totally, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have a friend from the show that does, like. Yeah, it's an AI company, but it's for, like, small businesses, like, H vac owners and helping them. It's like, yeah, I don't think that's on the roadmap. That's really good. Amazing jokes aside, I think it comes down to this tacit knowledge and where you can capture how people do a task and taste. Like, I see this a bit with our job. Like, you know, I'm using, like, Claude maxing as well, and, like, codex maxing. It's amazing how you can imbue it with your taste. And you're like, at some point you realize, okay, we've built, like, a learning machine that basically is like a div. You can pour as much as you want into it and it'll still, like, learn stuff. Before, it was only one task at a time. And forget accumulating multiple tasks. So at this point, if you're really AGI pilled, like, you have a call, you pipe the feedback in, you ask like, hey, how did I do? And you get suggestions. You do that on the next one, you pipe it back in, and then you're like, make a skill file. And then next time, here's a new opportunity. I'm like, dude, if you're not doing that, it's like, game over. And so I really do think, especially for our job, like, there was a point at which you're like, you know, solo GP with, like, 200 or $300 million with a bunch of AIs. Yeah. So I'll call you in 10 years and see if it works. I'm excited. I'm excited. Well, I want to hit the gong for the new fundraiser.

Yeah. This is just announcing the ipo, which I don't even know if they haven't even confirmed. This is now. This is currently in. In the scoop. In the scoop thing. So they haven't even. Scoop. You said they. So the. Wait, John, did you say scoop? Yes. This is a scoop from. What is. What is this? Doggy dog? Can we go to the wide angle? We got Katie Roof, Scoop master. We have a new. We have a new board. Her. The first TBVN golden scoop. The Golden Scoop. Do you want to show her the scoop? I don't want to. I don't want to pick it up yet. Why not? Okay, we can. We need to give the golden scoop award for the best scoop of the day to Katie Roof, who moved markets with her scoop. She, of course, is the deputy bureau chief of venture capital at the information, and she's an absolute scoop athlete. She's scoop doggy dog, and she moved markets. So SATS is up 7.8%. BKSY is up 4.8%. LUNR is up 4.1%. Every stock in the space. And we're working on a new award show. The Scoopies. The scoop, The TPP and Scoop. I think Katie Roof is a lock. I mean, she's in. She's a front runner for sure, putting on a generational run. Front runner for sure. Yeah. It's so.

Highly unusual decision to be made. She chased me. I love it. I love it. What are you looking for in a CEO? If I want to come work for you and work for one of your portfolio companies, what does it take to make it as a CEO? I don't think there's any like there's no one thing. There's no prescriptive formula. Number one thing we've learned because look, we've dealt with thousands of employees, CEOs, et cetera, invested in, I don't know, hundreds if not thousands of businesses. Self awareness is probably the most important thing because it can get you in trouble. If you think you're really smart, you better be really smart. Poker teaches you a lot of that. That's a good callback there for you. The self awareness. You control effort, you control attitude. Those two things you really do control. So hard work, great, you're going to be positive, optimistic. But awareness, like hey, we are the best by the way, these other people aren't that good. You should think about it. Constantly questioning where you're at and being humble. Is self awareness around intelligence the main flaw for CEOs or are there CEOs that are overconfident in their deal making ability and their emotional intelligence and their managerial ability and their ability to public speak and do. There's so many different things. The CEO is a bundle of traits I feel like intelligence obviously super important and making good strategic decisions, executing. But there's so much else that goes into actually running a company. I wouldn't not say lack of confidence is not necessarily an issue. Yeah, overconfidence is disaster. Interesting, interesting. You get yourself in a lot of trouble because you know for sure that this is going to happen and when it doesn't, you're in a world of hurt. That happens. So what are the signs that you're looking for to suss out if someone is self actualized in that way, aware of their flaws, aware of their strengths, their weaknesses. How are you interrogating that in an interview? We hate interviews.

Are fed into making something that ultimately does work and provides you with a steady paycheck. Yes, it's interesting because this. This quote of like people saying, ha, I called it. I knew Sora would work. That is not how I interpreted the vibes around the Sora launch. Like, I went back and revisited the essay that I wrote. On October 1st, we had the slop versus farming debate. I was really on a tear back then. Slop is bad. We, the timeline, don't want to be pigs at the trough. We don't like it when tech leaders treat us like farm animals. But we love farming. Farming is lindy. We, the timeline, want to return to a world where we are filling up troughs with slop on a daily basis, I guess. So between Google, DeepMind, Meta Superintelligence and OpenAI, we now have three different variations on AI video products, each met with slightly different responses. So the interesting thing here is that Google has been charging ahead, launching it. It's in shorts, and that's just been like not a story at all. What was interesting was that the. The vibes around both Meta Vibes and Sora were like, this is going to one shot humanity. They're like, this is going to be too successful. That was. It was like. It was. It was like a entertainment doom loop. Exactly. You could imagine. Exactly it. Just getting so good at generating the next thing that you would want to see better than even a billion humans on Instagram could do. And that's not what we've seen so far. And so like, my big question was, was like, will this actually be sticky? Will people like this? And at what rate? I mean, I read, I read LLM generated text daily, but I also read a ton of not LLM generated text. And my ratio.

2026. We are live from the TVP Ultra realm, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the Capital Finance Capital. Sorry ramp.com Time is money save both easy use, corporate cards, bill pay accounting and a whole lot more all in one place. We have a great show for you today, folks. We got Mike from ArcPrize coming on the new Panator. He did it. He did it. We'll talk about this later. We have Nathan, my buddy from Air Street Capital, Rohan Darwin giving us an update on what's happening in San Francisco in the housing market. Eric Jorgensen, the author of the book of Elon's Coming on. And then Jenny just from Peak six Investments coming on later. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Linear, of course, is the system for modern software development. 70% of enterprise workspace on Linear are using agents. So there's been a debate. Truth bomb dropped by Emil Michael. He says forgiving Benchmark and others would be like letting the Wuhan Institute of Virology slide back into a good reputation because the new senior manager of pandemic causation has made more friends than his predecessor. And so this got me thinking and I'm probably gonna have to put on the steel helmet for this one. Cause this is wading into dangerous territory defending Benchmark. But my question is, how close are we to actually being able to forgive Benchmark? When is the right time? It's been a decade. Obviously the drama between Benchmark and Travis Kalanick was awful. I think everyone's against what happened. But the question is, what is a venture firm? It is its partnership. If the partnership turns over at some point, is it a new. Is it a new team? Do you get a second shot? Can you. Can you actually change. Change the reputation? And so believe me, like, I get the Benchmark criticism. Like, Travis is truly a generational entrepreneur and was on such an amazing run. Right. So he was attacked. Jason. Jason from Saster was reacting to our interview with Travis. And his take, which I totally agree with, is if Travis had stayed in the role. It's hard to imagine Uber being worth less than something like a trillion dollars today. Yes. So our friend of the show, Owen McCabe over at Bin AI and Intercom, said Waymo is superior to Uber in literally every way. This was a year ago, in March 25, actually to the day a year ago, he said this. In Waymo, superior to Uber in literally every way that matters to consumers. Smoother, safer, more reliable, no chatty, weird, rude, rude drivers. Private qu. Self driving car services are going to dominate their human Driver, incumbents and own says tbt when I think that's throwback to. Right. Throwback to when Benchmark pushed Travis out of Uber and can the self driving division that he started literally 10 years ago. And so this is, this is what's so, so tricky about this is that you know, uber survived. It's 150 billion market cap. It's bigger than when Travis was ousted. But, but getting a 2x over a decade is not what I think people were expecting from Uber under Travis's leadership. And Lyft has fallen to just 5 billion like he won the capital war. And Dara's done a great job managing the business. But I feel like a lot of the success of Uber has been built on the foundation that Travis set up. It wasn't a complete reinvention. If anything they just honed down the core business. Yeah. Just the thing that is holding the business back right now, at least from a valuation standpoint standpoint is this big question. Yeah. Right around self driving. How you know, and Dara has, has answered this question, you know, thousands of times right now the strategy is to invest in self driving companies, partner with self driving companies, but not the same as like having, you know, having developed their own internal IP and product starting a decade ago and seeing where that would have been. Yeah. By now is, is just, is rough. Hard to think about. Yeah. And so Uber is valued at 150 today. Something like that. Waymo was valued in February of this year at 126 billion. And so yes, Waymo's been working on self driving longer but you have to imagine that there's another 50 billion of market cap if you have a serious play. What would Waymo be valued if Travis was the CEO? Yeah, you would get some type of Travis premium on it. Just, just the market would be, would, would totally, totally, totally, totally. You have this sort of one of one entrepreneur. Yeah. In the seat. 100%. And just to sort of recap where things stand, I mean Shervin Pishevar been on the show as well. We've had like everyone from this saga in the TVP in orbit. Both Travis and Bill Gurley have been on the show. Shervin's been on the show. Emil Michael's been on the show. We've, we've, we've talked to a number of people that have been around this and it's a fascinating one. It's one of the most interesting. It was certainly formative in my career because I got to Silicon Valley and this was the first Big story that played out really so Shervin said. In my opinion, Gurley single handedly destroyed hundreds of billions in value. Travis and Emil staying in charge of Uber would have led to a Tesla sized win 500 billion plus for everyone including Benchmark's LPs. He nuked decades of Benchmark's reputation with founders. The market has spoken and no future Travis Quality founder would ever touch him or his former firm again. Especially since three of the partners that approved the of the ousting of Travis are still at the firm. And so my question is like how many partners need to be at the firm until we can call this a ship of Theseus? So for those who are not up to speed on their Greek mythology, in Greek mythology, Theseus is the mythical king of the city of Athens. He rescues the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur, which is his mythical beast. And then he escapes onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this success by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honor Apollo. Over time, because they're sailing the ship every year, various of its timbers rotted and were replaced. A question was raised by ancient philosophers. If no pieces of the original ship remained in the current ship, is it still the ship of Theseus? If it was no longer the same, when had it ceased existing as the original ship? So some people might say 50, 50. Some people might say yes, it is the same ship because replacing one board at a time, the ship is the concept and you can swap everything out 25 times, it's still the same ship. There isn't like it's a paradox. There is no right answer. It's a philosophical question, but, but it applies, I think to Benchmark because back when Kalanick resigned as Uber CEO on June 20th of 2017 after investor pressure that included Benchmark on that exact date, Benchmark's equal GP roster was Bill Gurley, Eric Vistra, Matt Kohler, Mitch Lasky, Peter Fenton, Sarah Tavel. Today the partnership has changed dramatically. The only two that remain are Peter and Eric. And you have Chetan, Ev Randall and Jack Altman, who are new to the partnership post the Uber scandal. And so it's not a full ship of Theseus, but only one third of the original 2017 partnership remains. And my question for those who remain reluctant to forgive Benchmark is like, what happens if Peter and Eric retire or leave at some point and the full ship of Theseus is complete? Like maybe you'll ship yeah, right now, right now, 40% of the 40% of the partnership was there 33%. Oh, I mean, I guess two out of the five. Yeah. So two out of the five, because they've added three. But only one third of the original partnership remains. The question is, did Chatan, Everett and Jack come in and as part of the interview process, say, like, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I mean, to defend Ev, he's been on showing good fighting. Two. Two out of the three. Ev had just graduated from college. Like, he was truly, like, not involved in the Uber scandal. And yet, you know, people will visit it upon him knowing Everett and Jack. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure during the interview process, they were like, I, you know, the storied firm. Yeah. I'm excited to join, but we can never do. Yeah. Never do anything like that again. Yeah. And so. And so one. One question that's worth asking is like, is the firm that did this and ultimately, you know, stained this, this storied brand. Yeah. And has certainly suffered the consequences. Right. They've put up, you know, incredible returns since then, but I'm sure they've missed a lot of deals that would have made their returns even better because of that kind of narrative around the firm. And so they have. They. I would say, you know, Emil, Michael, and others are upset that they're doing great deals at all. Yeah. But I think it is that a question I have is like, are they. If they're in a situation again. Right. In the same situation kind of situation, are they more. What. What decision are they more or less likely to make? Right. I would. I would argue, like, they are probably less likely to. I would think so go against the founder, given. Given how this entire situation has played out. Yeah. Yeah. The only steel man. And this needs the full steel helmet because it's so hard to steel man the benchmark thing. But the full steel man of the benchmark thing is really bad. It's really bad to bench. I'm sorry for everyone. I'm sorry. But it's basically that every partner at Benchmark, it's an equal partnership, so every partner was going to make a clean $1 billion. They were all going to be billionaires from this one deal. And it was such a power law that there was no path to becoming a billionaire from the other investments, most likely. And so you see the endless 247 hit piece pile stack up, and you got Mike Isaac bloodhounded at the New York Times writing books. They're turning into movies. It's getting rough. It's getting right. Mike, Isaac's at your door. Yeah, my guys is at the door. The barbarians are at the gate. And you're like, I'm either a billionaire or I'm going back to a paltry 10 million. And I can't, I can't do that. I can't do that. And so they freak out and they're like, we got to salvage this thing. We got to just push it out in the public markets. We got to get out of this name. And so they basically just. It's just too nerve wracking. And yeah, it's not a strong steel, man, but I think, I think that's a little bit more of what happened than, than like taking a stand on like, oh, like this particular thing that happened was so egregious. It was more just like, okay, like, wow, all my money, like 99% of my net worth is in this asset. And it's looking like it could be a zero because Lyft is coming from behind. There's a whole bunch of VCs that are piling into that. The narrative is totally flipping. There's a boycott Uber campaign, like, and everyone's like, what's going on? I got to get out of this. I got to salvage this. And I think that was maybe more of the underpinning than like, like I'm taking some sort of like, moral stand on a particular hit piece or something like that. Anyway, it's rough, but fortunately, you know, ship Theseus process, maybe it happens, I don't know. Would Darling accept that argument? Probably not. Would Emil? Probably not. But they're not making it any easier with the Madness investment either because, like, there was a world where it was like, okay, yeah, the Uber thing happened a decade ago. The partnership is basically entirely new and they're focused on. But it's, but it's not there yet. Yes, it's just not there yet. It's not there yet. But I think, I think you can rewrite this in five years. Yeah, yeah. You made this point that it's too early to call this, but, but I think it's directionally, given that the firm is still, is still putting up great returns. They've gotten to a bunch of great companies over the last five years. I think we are on a path to the benchmark. Well, yeah, Venture Lazard, the ventureship of Theseus and vc. Bragg said Airbnb has no homes, Uber has no cars, and Benchmark has no partners. Of course, that was an exaggeration, but they did get down to just three partners, which is very, very small for a venture capital firm. Some some have dozens of partners but different strategy and we will see where it goes. Anyway, let me tell you about Applovin. Profitable advertising is Easy with Axon AI. Get access to over 1 billion daily active users and grow your business today. And let me also tell you about Lambda Lambda is the super intelligence cloud building AI, supercomputers for training and trains that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. So Sora, rest in peace. Sora the app is leaving. Ev is in the chat. There he is. Class of 17 represent. Yes, yes. Ev was. Ev was chugging beers while Uber was getting ousted. Do not visit the sins of the father on the son. That's what I would say. EV not guilty. EV was a Boulder. Yeah, he was hanging out. He was. What happened senior year? What happened? I think EV deserves a fair shake and should not and should not have to bear the cross from the question. The real question Do EV and Jack pull a benchmark and force out original partners? They don't have the legal control to do so, but neither did they during the Callan expire. At this point, EV is probably already getting.

Meek Mill has been going off. Yes. About AI. AI is helping him organize his whole music career and other businesses in days. And it's moving his business forward at a high rate. Some tech young bull I met on LinkedIn gave me an incredible template. Was probably Gstack. Yeah, yeah. Who else can help me with Claude? Gabe says Drake I don't do K2. Kimmy Deepseek that's more for your kind. My gal more like Demis theme park ting London DeepMind Meek Mill I quad coded perks out of 18th and Berks. I got 500 agent lawyers trying to free Lil Durk. That's a good line Bars Drake singing you got me loco trying to be your shoulder. You didn't sing it. Sophie chimes in two chains open claw my laptop trapping off these Mac minis shout out to YC Real GS want to stack with me. That's good. That is good. I mean, yeah, it's not a. It's not a bubble until. Until G stack makes it into. Makes it into a actual hit. The funny thing here is there's some debate and there's this general vibe like some people were latching on this trunk fan post about like, you know, are people making fun of Meek Mill? Are people like undercoun his ability to actually build something for real? And the interesting thing is that I would definitely bet on Meek Mill to build a real valuable piece of software for his audience or his life or his business over any of these tech people writing rap lyrics. Even with all the powerful LLMs, like, the tools to actually build software are way better than the tools to write rap lyrics. And it's interesting because you are seeing this dynamic where the, like, I think a lot of people are latching onto the older paradigm of like, oh, like, you know, Jeremy Renner built an Instagram clone at one point and it was just the Jeremy Renner app and it was just his feed of his photos. And people were like, why does this exist? You can just follow Jeremy Renner on Instagram. It doesn't make sense that he would have like his own private Instagram. And he probably spent a lot of money developing that piece of software. And I don't think it wound up working. And it didn't scale and he wound up winding that project down. But if you think about like, well, what if this cost of doing that is 100 bucks or 200 bucks or a thousand bucks, like all of a sudden the hurdle rate to clear something like that actually does open up the creative aspects where I wouldn't be surprised if there's a like, maybe not like a breakout, hyperscale, incredible generational company, but just like in terms of you can be a great musical artist and also produce great clothing. Like you will now be able to produce software at the equivalent level like it is available. And so if you are constrained by your ideas and if you're a creative artist and you have a great idea, you're no longer going to be in this world where you're like, well, I need to put a couple million bucks down for a software engineering team and they're going to not really take me seriously. And all of a sudden you get into this weird thing where like the app that they launch is like sort of iffy and not that good. So I don't know, I'm actually, I'm actually coming away bullish on what Meek Mill winds up producing over the next few years. And we are working on getting Meek on the show.

Q. River says QVC basically reinvented live streaming decades. Invented live streaming decades ago. Goes 24. 7. They invented live TV. Goes 24. 7. A good 80% of the show is just the host going on long. Personal digressions. People watch it as background heavy. Parasocial element. Hosts know the callers. 95% of repeat buyers. It's 100% twitch for grandmas. Let's pull up QVC. And with the submarine, I wanted to tell you that I got that peasant blouse with the tassels. Yes. And I used to wear the tassels on my pasties. Do you know what pasties are? This is. Okay. Ridiculous. What pasties are okay? Well, I have crazy. We're moving on.

Says, what is this? Y' all are worried about the wrong Open Claw. This is a good post. This is the open claw that Ev Randall was worried about in 2017. He was not thinking about, was White claw invented in 2017? When did white Claw get founded? That's a great. I feel like it really took off. It had a fast takeoff. Yeah. 2016. 2016. Okay. There's a very good chance he was an early adopter. He might have been an early adopter of Open Claw. It truly was. I'm calling it openclaw now. White Claw did have a fast takeoff for sure. It went from zero to 60, and it was just everywhere all of a sudden. Anyway.

Was, I think it's zero percent. Walk me through the actual build out of these hundred games. Is this entirely human done? Is there some sort of computer aided tooling to insert variation programmatically? Or is it important that they're all created by hand? How do you think about the creation? I wish we could use AI to help design games. We'd be able to make the benchmark even better. The reality is like, humans are still the bottleneck on creativity. And so every game has still been handcrafted and hand designed by humans. You could sort of imagine if you were embedding all these different levels on like a big manifold, you know, in an embedding you want them all as far apart as possible in that sort of space. And today still humans are kind of the limiting factor in terms of ensuring that, you know, every game is different and as novel from each other as possible. Yeah, there's one of. There's a few interesting design changes actually from a benchmark standpoint compared to 1 and 2. Maybe the largest is, you know, arc studies the frontier progress. We have to design our future versions of benchmark to adapt to changing frontier progress. One of the design goals with 1 and 2 was we have what's called a private and a public test split, where we have a public version of the benchmark and a private holdout version, which is what we actually use to verify the performance of frontier models. Air reasoning. So the frontier models get no freebies, they don't get anything from the public set, but they can't memorize the public set. Right. Or they can experiment on the public set from like a prompting perspective maybe. Yeah. The idea is the public set is intended to demonstrate the format. Okay. And this was similar with ARC 1 and 2. However, we held a design goal that the public sets and the private sets were what's called ID'd with each other basically that they are. Are supposed to be as close as possible to each other, and it's just split along visibility. Some are private and some are public. With one of the big advancements with AI reasoning, is this actually not a very useful way to run benchmarks? AI reasoning systems are so powerful now that they can actually generalize across IDD test splits. And this is what we saw with arc 1 and 2. So with 3, one of the big design decisions is we're actually releasing fewer games into the public demonstration set. So there's only, I think, about 25 games that are in the public set, where we're actually explicitly not even calling it a training set anymore. We're calling it a demonstration set, just to show the format to humans. Be able to test your systems to make sure you can sort of create them, get a feel for them. There's obviously fun marketing value in being able to play the games as humans too, which we really love. And on the private set, this is the set that's over 100 games. They're specifically different. We design them with different characteristics, different goals, different intelligence capabilities required to beat them. The difficulty, the acceptance criteria is more extreme between human and AI performance, all to hopefully produce the most useful high signal benchmark towards whether we actually are getting real progress towards AGI with the foundation models. So.

Everett and Jack. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure during the interview process they were like, I, you know, the storied firm. Yeah. I'm excited to join, but we can never do. Yeah. Never do anything like that again. Yeah. And so, and so one, one question that's worth asking is, it's like, is the firm that did this and ultimately, you know, stained this, this storied brand. Yeah. And has certainly suffered the consequences. Right. They've put up and, you know, know incredible returns since then. But I'm sure they've missed a lot of deals that would have made their returns even better because of that kind of narrative around the firm. And so they have, they, I would say, you know, Emil, Michael and others are upset that they're doing great deals at all. Yeah. But I think it is that a question I have is like, are they, if they're in a situation again. Right. In the same situation kind of situation, are they more. What decision are they more or less likely to make? Right. I would argue like they are probably less likely to go against the founder, given how this entire situation has played out. Yeah. Yeah. The only steel man. And this needs the full steel helmet because it's so hard to steel man, the benchmark thing. But the full steel man of the benchmark thing, it's really bad. It's really bad to bench. I'm sorry for everyone. I'm sorry. But it's basically that every partner at Benchmark, it's an equal partnership. So every partner was going to make a clean $1 billion. They were all going to be billionaires from this one deal. And it was such a power law that there was no path to becoming a billionaire from the other investments, most likely. And so you see the endless 247 hit piece pile stack up and you got Mike Isaac bloodhounded at the New York Times writing books. They're turning into movies. It's getting rough. It's getting rough. Mike Isaac's at your door. Yeah, Mike Isaac's at. Is at the door. The barbarians are at the gate. And you're like, I'm either a billionaire or I'm going back to a paltry 10 million. And I can't do that. I can't do that. And so they freak out and they're like, we got to salvage this thing. We got to just push it out in the public markets. We got to get out of this name. And so they basically just. It's just too nerve wracking. And yeah, it's not a strong steel man, but I think that's a little bit more of what happened than taking a stand on this particular thing that happened was so egregious. It was more just like, okay, wow, all my money, like, 99% of my net worth is in this asset. And it's looking like it could be a zero because Lyft is coming from behind. There's a whole bunch of VCs that are piling into that. The narrative is totally flipping. There's a boycott Uber campaign, and everyone's like, what's going on? I got to get out of this. I got to salvage this. And I think that was maybe more of the underpinning than like. Like, I'm taking some sort of, like, moral stand on a particular hit piece or something like that. Anyway, it's rough, but fortunately, you know, ship Theseus process, maybe it happens. I don't know. Would Delian accept that argument? Probably not. Would Emil? Probably not. But they're not making it any easier with the Manus investment either, because there was a world where it was like, okay, yeah, the Uber thing happened a decade ago. The partnership is basically entirely new, and they're focused on. But it's. But it's not there yet. Yes, it's just not there yet. It's not there yet. But I. Still there. I think you can rewrite this in five years. Yeah, yeah. You made this point that it's too early to call this. But. But I think it's directionally. Given that the firm is still putting up great returns, they've gotten to a bunch of great companies over the last five years. I think we are on a path to the benchmark. Well, yeah, Venture Lazard, the ventureship of Theseus.

We're really all over the place today. Anyway, Sora is now. Is it still in the App Store? I think it's like the announcement was that it will be leaving the App Store. Millions of people have made content on the app. You have to leave it running for some amount of time. There's a phase out. But the announcement happened and now it is going out. And I have a bunch of takes on this. Obviously this is not the end of video creation for OpenAI. This will be rolled into ChatGPT. I imagine Tyler Hodge put it well, bullish. Killing products quickly is hard. Almost no one can do it. It's a good sign for OpenAI. They're consolidating in many ways. It's like last week you heard about the code red was like a month or two ago. And then it was like, we're refocusing. And then it's like here's step one of refocusing a single app that we're going to push everything together. And also I just, I've enjoyed making some videos in Sora. I've never enjoyed having to go to a separate app. I want all of that to live in one place. So that makes a lot of sense. Let's see what Dax said. It's lame to see all the people saying, ha, I called it. I knew Sora wouldn't work. Yeah, duh. Because everyone thought that, including me who were working on it. They probably learned a lot trying to make it work. Anyway, for every successful thing that exists, 100 efforts like this had to fail. And those learnings are fed into making something that ultimately does work and provides you with a solution. Paycheck. Yes, it's interesting because this, this quote of like people saying, ha, I called it. I knew Sora would work. That is not how I interpreted the vibes around the Sora launch. Like, I went back and revisited the essay that I wrote. On October 1st, we had the slop versus farming debate. I was really on a tear back then. Slop is bad. We, the timeline, don't want to be pigs at the trough. We don't like it when tech leaders treat us like farm animals. But we love farming. Farming is lindy. We, the timeline, want to return to world where we are filling up troughs with slop on a daily basis, I guess. So between Google, DeepMind, Meta Superintelligence and OpenAI, we now have three different variations on AI video products. Each met with slightly different responses. So the. Yeah, the interesting thing here is that like Google has been like charging ahead, launching it. It's in real, it's in shorts. And that's just been like not a story at all. What was interesting was that the vibes around both Meta Vibes and Sora were like, this is going to one shot humanity. They're like, this is going to be too successful. That was. It was like. It was, it was like a entertainment doom loop. Exactly. You could imagine. Exactly it. Just getting so good at generating the next thing that you would want to see better than even a billion humans on Instagram. Yes. Could do. And that's not what we've seen. Yes. So far. And so like my big question was, was like, will this actually be sticky? Will people like this? And at what rate? I mean, I read LLM generated text daily, but I also read a ton of not LLM generated text. And my ratio has grown exponentially, but it hasn't gone to 100%, nowhere near it. Like probably 5% of the text that I read is LLM generated. I mean, we should actually revisit how we were processing it during launch when it was rocketing. We should just throw on that three hour stream and just watch that and react to how our times for that day. But even at the time, I remember saying, very obvious that they built like a very cool creative tool. Yeah. And they have the potential to see a network with this. There's all this, you know, novel content they had. They had allowing creators and you know, people like Sam to allow people to use their, their ip. Yeah, it was very, very well executed launch. But even from the beginning it was like, okay, obviously cool creative tool. It's a totally different ball. You know, this like come for the tool, stay for the network has been like an enduring. It's Chris Dixon strategy. Right. Chris Dixon probably wrote that in like 2014 maybe or. Yeah, like a long time ago. Over 10, over 10 years ago. Yeah. But just because you build a tool that is attached to a network like that jump is just really, really, really, really tough. Especially when there are three or four, five serious networks that are at scale that can on day one, support the format of the file that is produced from the model. So in a world where generative AI video came out not in a MP4 file or an MOV file, it came out in some sort of format that could never be uploaded to Instagram reels, then you have a chance to build a network and run away with it. And this was the story of Instagram. Like Instagram just had better support for images than Facebook did. And then vine had support for video literally before Instagram So Instagram, it was like, I have a video on my phone. It's cool, I want to share it. Sharing it to Instagram was not possible. Now on day one, you generate an AI video. You want to share it, you can share it on TikTok. Yeah. It's just the incentive. If you created an amazing video on Sora. Yeah. What is the most logical thing to do if you're a creator and you want reach post it to Instagram. There's just naturally, there's billions of people there. There were millions of people on Sora and a lot of energy, momentum. Yeah. And it's not lost on me that the same day that Sora was killed, you have a Viral Breakout reality TV style series putting up incredible numbers on TikTok for fruit. Love Island, I believe it's called. It's an AI generated twist on Love Island. There's romantic intrigue and plot lines and stories and consistent characters and a lot of things that have come from a variety of AI models. And we should talk to the person that's the entrepreneur behind that project because I would be interested to know what the stack is, because I imagine it's not just going to a single gen AI app. I imagine that they have a whole pipeline of a workflow in place to actually generate that. And so we're at this weird moment where, you know, Sora, the app is going away, but we're also seeing more and more AI generated content, slowly see success. Whether that's the podcast that's at the top of the charts, that's fully AI generated. There's this Love island show. There's a number of niches where they found the right product market fit for AI generated content. But it's not overnight. We're living in infinite just. And we just can't look away. It's like for specific things. It makes a lot of sense. And so it's working there. Yeah. It's interesting to think about Google's strategy with video. Even Google was like, we cannot operate this for free at scale. 250 bucks a month. No, that was the discounted rate. Oh, I think I had 500amonth or something. Yeah, it was like an entry to start. It was like $250 a month. And it was brutally weight limited. Like. Yeah. Even with. We were laughing at this because three a day. I remember we'd be like at the gym in the morning, you would fire off a couple of prompts. Yeah. And. And then you were like, rate I got it right. Yeah. I hope I wouldn't get it right, then you were rate limited and you're like, wait, I'm rate limited on a, on a $250 plan that's going to jump to 500. You're probably paying. Got to check the rate check out. It's probably paying 500amonth still. No, seriously. And, and that, and that, that's Google with all this literally a hyperscaler insane data advantage with YouTube and that. Let me tell you, rate limits kill retention. Like nothing is worse. If you're in Instagram, the endless scroll exists. TikTok, you can scroll endlessly. You can use the. Imagine if TikTok was like after five minutes you have to close the app and come back in 20 minutes. How successful do we think that would be? It would be a disaster. And that was the experience for Both Sora and VO3 where you would fire off a prompt and it would be like, okay, come back in a couple minutes, take me a while to cook. And then you fire off five and it's like okay, we're doing no more for today. And then the next day happens and you forget about it and you go on something else. So clearly the compute constraints are immense and there's just so much more value that can come from enterprise and can come from deep research and so many of the other models that are immediately economically value like code gen, like enterprise workflows and it's maybe more boring and less viral and less controversial, but it's, it's where the compute needs to go. And so I think you're going to see the chips be moved around inside of all the labs to like compute will find the most optimal output. Like the tokens of the most value will always be the ones that it flow that the compute flows to. And as a lot of people predicted, like just endless random generations that aren't quite dialed yet. Even the best video models, like they're just not there. They require a lot of work is not the same as where we are in terms of knowledge retrieval, where we are in terms of code gen. It's just way more valuable. So anyway, let me tell you about Okta Okta.

Some doozies. I mean, I don't want to dwell on it. Yeah, no, no. We'll refer. This is a callback to your previous person. In 2008 we had. It was a good year for us. Not because we were smart and short. The market. Yeah. Jenny was like, she's like, things are confusing. We should be in cash. And we were. So I was lucky. Well, she was right. The market goes crazy and then we have a lot of cash. Everybody starts knocking on your door in the fall. And she's like, well, why don't we do something good for humanity? We'll do electric vehicles. Sure. So we are early. Yeah. So we interview two different people at the time. We're not investors at this point. We are traders. Yeah. So it's two different things. Operators, traders. Still don't know for investors. We're just knuckleheads. Yeah, yeah. Okay. We get two people. We're going to interview the two companies at the time. Yeah. One is this PayPal guy who's trying to do it and the other is guy who was the chief architect at BMW. The PayPal guy gets on the call, on a call with us. With you. With me. Just to be clear. Okay. Let's see where this is going. Yes. You know where it's going. I mean, if he's listening, if he listens to this, I don't know if he'll remember because I think he was stoned out of his mind. Okay. It was the worst presentation I ever heard. Like, this guy's never going to build. It wasn't about cars. It was about. Is about the train. You were talking about trains. Trains between electromagnetic trains also be useful. I was like, what the hell are we talking about? This is supposed to be a business investment. I want to hear the business pitch. And the other person comes in buttoned up. Right. German engineer, amazing. Built these my entire career, 100%. So we go with that person. Nine months later we find out that the, the one we invested in, when it rains, the cars catch on fire and explode. So not a good one. Yeah, that's not a good. That's a bad downside. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think a lot of investors have had to really come around to the other pattern of thinking. I know some investors that, I mean even on the other side, I know an investor that passed on Tesla. But not because Elon was thinking too futuristic. He was thinking, well, well, all the cars are going to be self driving and no one's going to need a car anymore. So if this guy's just building cars. Why should I invest in this? And, of course, Tesla was going to be the one to do that, but that was too hard to predict. And it just gets very, very hard when you think that far out. So walk me through a deal that is in the wheelhouse.

So I think, like, you know, if you're going to use a real estate agent, you should use one that, like, really knows a particular market really well. So for me, I want that to be San Francisco. Yeah. How much of the San Francisco boom is attributable to the labs being based in San Francisco, like, specifically, as opposed to the previous generation of tech boom times happening in Menlo Park, Cupertino, sort of on the Peninsula? Yeah, I'd say It's about like 50, 50, like, explaining what's going on. Like, on one hand, like, what's really driving it is, like, the perception that the city is on the right track with, like, the mayor and like, walking around, it just feels better and it feels fun and people are moving there and sort of like, it sort of regained the zeitgeist of like a place you move to, to invent the future. So, I mean, that's like half of it and then the other half of it. Is it like. Yeah, like, we've had very successful companies in San Francisco, tech companies, but we never had the big one like Meta or Goog, Apple, and now, like, we have two, you know, that like, just started that are within that range. And like, it's somewhat unprecedented, I think, even though we've had like $100 billion companies before and like Twitter. But this is at a different level, an order of magnitude. And so that's just going to drive up attention and excitement and all sorts of things. What are the most underrated neighborhoods, what's on the come up right now?

This is the place for me. And what does the, the, the, like the down the fairway place in San Francisco look like these days? Is everything over 2 million, 3 million? Like, where are we in terms of single family? Kind of trying to find a place that is, that would fit four people and might have parking and a second bathroom and two or three bedrooms. Say like a year ago it was like around 2 million. And then if you were slightly above that price, there'd be like a big drop off in competition. And now it's like that level has sort of definitely moved up to like 3ish million. But the bigger change too is that like, there's like huge level of competitions at any price point now. Okay. It's like one that sort of checks the box for buyers. So give me some advice. If I'm trying to win one of those competitions, what do I have to do? I have to show up with all cash, Just put the cash in the bag. What do I have to do? I mean, all cash. I mean, in any given offer process, like, there'll be a decent number of all cash buyers. So it's not like it's gonna. You can walk in and be like, oh, I'm gonna, yeah, win this because I'm all cash. Like, assume like a third or, you know, half might be over a certain price point. And like, I think what you sort of have to realize is there's going to be a range of competition on any given house. So, like, some houses, you know, this could be like a five or six million dollars house. So pretty expensive house. And there might be like 15 offers. Whoa. And like, the seller's not like going to just sell it to you because you're a cool guy. Like, they're, they. The market will sort of dictate the price. And unfortunately for buyers, you just have to say, you know, the highest price and the best terms to win. Okay. And so like, what you're sort of trying to navigate is the level of competition any one house is going to have. So, like, say it doesn't have as many bathrooms as you want, but you could figure out how to add one or say it's like off market and only a few people know about it, so there's less competition. So like, your lever of getting a good deal on a house isn't like just like participating in a massive auction. It's like trying to participate in an auction only you know about or a smaller sort of, you know, a different kind of property. So. And you're probably expecting it to go a lot higher. I imagine with IPOs, the labs are.

In Kenya for example. So we are super quick turnkey events. Best events that are on the pokerpower.com yes pokerpower.com I love it. Well, thank you both for taking the time to come chat with us. We will close the show here on this camera. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. We'll be live tomorrow at 11am Pacific Sharp. Sign up for our newsletter@tvpn.com and we'll see you tomorrow. Goodbye.

With 11 labs. And let me also tell you about Gemini 3.1 Pro. We are going to Deep Dive ARC AGI today and Gemini 3.1 Pro has done very, very well with a more capable baseline. It's great for super complex tasks like visualizing difficult concepts, synthesizing data into a single view or bringing creative projects to life. SpaceX aims to file IPO as soon as this week. Yes, I know everyone is excited for the S1 particularly. I think people will be focused on XAI. Yeah. What they have going on, I think that. Are they going to have to break it out in the, in the S1? I would assume so. This is the first time we actually see the economics of inference, the economics of foundation lab. Even though yes, they are at a smaller scale, hard to read too much into it because they've been investing so far ahead. And yeah, I just think that like there is a world where we get broken out financials that you can dig through and you can understand based on GROK pricing which we see, and top line revenue and cost we can actually see are they serving that model profitably? And there will be, you know, a lot to dig into there. Obviously the other labs have different strategies, different vertical integration points, different economic, different pricing regimes. I mean the true frontier, the models that are dominating Arc AGI, which we will talk about in 15 minutes, those command a premium, a price premium. And there's a wild difference between charging 15 bucks per million tokens versus $2 per million tokens. So it will be. Yeah. And if, remember I think it was in Q4 of last year, if you looked on open router, Groq was what had. I think it was like Grok fast, had a ton of usage. People are like okay, why is this happening? And part of it at least I believe was because they were subsidizing it. Well, but okay, so here's what I think. So people were posting this as though it was fact, but I think it's a very real possibility. So I think Elon will, will try to aim for the company to actually go out on on April 20th. 420. Really. And I think it is possible if he goes fast, the, the ticker, we'll see what the ticker ends up being. But I think some people would like knowing Elon's very millennial sense of humor. I think the ticker S E X is. Oh, you think so? Plus the April 20th IPO. I would assume that is a real prediction. You're not trolling. I'm not saying I'm not Saying I would bet on it. But I think there's like a. I think there's. I think there's. I would put the April 20th at maybe like, you know, 30% and then the ticker may be down at. Okay, well, 10% call. She has. When will SpaceX officially announce an IPO? Before June 1st. Which April 20th would be before June 1st. Yeah, I'm not talking about. I'm talking about like list action. Actual, like listing day. Like the day of the ipo. Yeah, this is just announcing the ipo, which I don't even know if they haven't even confirmed. This is now. This is currently in. In the scoop. In the scoop thing. So they haven't even. Scoop. You said they. So the. Wait, John, did you say scoop? Yes, this is a scoop from. What is. What is this? Doggy Dog? Can we go to the wide angle? We got Katie Roof, Scoop Master. We have a new. We have a new board. Her. The first TBVN Golden Scoop. The Golden Scoop Award. Do you want to show her the scoop? I don't want to pick it up yet. Why not? Okay, we need to give the Golden Scoop award for the best scoop of the day to Katie Roof, who moved markets with her scoop. She of course, is the deputy bureau chief of Venture Capital at the information and she's an absolute scoop athlete. She's Scoop Doggy Dog and she moved markets. So SATS is up 7.8%. BKSY is up 4.8%. LUNR is up 4.1%. Every stock in the space. And we're working on a new award show. The Scoopies. The Scoopies. The TPPN Scoopies. I think Katie Roof is a lock. I mean, she's a front runner for sure, putting on a generational run. Front runner for sure. Yeah. It's so funny. Incredible moment for the retail space investor community. Yeah. Because they're just, for some reason, people, people. Anytime you get SpaceX repricing, they're like, well, this other random company that happens to be technically on the same market map definitely deserves to be worth 7% more. Yeah, I don't know. I was as skeptical about the rest of the lunar economy for a long time. It felt like winner take all. It felt like SpaceX was running away with it. But there have been interesting dynamics where companies that are buyers of SpaceX capacity, whether on the satellite Internet side or on the launch capacity side, they don't want a monopoly to exist and so they're willing to throw money at competitors. And Jeff Bezos has stuck around with Blue Origin. Rocket Lab's done very well. There's been a bunch people are saying we need to redesign the scoop. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't even know what you could be talking. It's an ice cream scoop. It's an ice cream scoop, people. Get your mind out of the gutter. Out of the gutter. Head over to Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. Okay, Casey Hammer is worried. What is he saying? He's worried. Why is he worried? He's stressed. Why is he stressed? What I worry about is a generation of talented, experienced engineers being too rich. Yes. To work. So if you're worried about being demotivated by your incredible SpaceX liquidity, you have to do what I recommend, which is the Brewster's Millions approach, where you have to spend all the money in 30 days without telling anyone why you're doing it. This is from the 1980s 1990s comedy called Brewster's Millions, which I highly recommend you watch. In it, a man is. Is gifted an inheritance from a wealthy uncle or father figure grandfather, and it is conditioned on the fact that he needs to spend something like $30 million in 30 days without telling anyone why. And he can't accrue assets, so he can't go and just buy cars. He needs to throw parties and give money away and spend money wildly. And it's to teach him that money does not bring happiness. Of course. And I think that's the solution to this. Anyway, let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market your business on MongoDB? Don't just build AI, own the data platform that powers it. Okay, here's why I'm not worried. Why are you not worried? Because I think that these ultra talented, hardworking engineers having some liquidity, let's say someone's been there for some number of years, they have 5 million liquid, they buy a nice house somewhere, and then realize, hey, I've got a nice nest egg I can keep working on. Crazy moonshot, I don't have to go join. You know, the historical example would be like, work on the hard thing or work on enterprise SaaS. And I think this just will give people more confidence to work on the hard thing. The thing that might have a 5% chance of success, but if it's successful, you know, has a tremendous impact on. Yeah, on, on, on our country. And things like that. So it might happen for some people. But in general I do think that there is this liquidity wave coming. Dalian talked about on the show yesterday. At the same time like SpaceX has been doing tenders for over a decade and it's not like the early employees have never had a crumb of liquidity or secondary throughout their journey. A lot of them have had opportunities to sell at least a portion of their stake and had been able to buy houses. And there's always been to access some of that capital either through a loan from a bank. And you're obviously more credit worthy if you own a bunch of SpaceX stock and it's going up and. Yeah. Bigger. A bigger issue for the kind of space economy overall is just the blue origin. People who like wasn't. Didn't they have like way more like. They didn't. They didn't really know what their equity was worth. They didn't. It's not like there was regular tenders. Yeah. And so why work at the number 2? At least by many definitions based company. And then that's potentially ultimately bad for competition and it's bad for launch pricing for all these other companies that are reliant on the SpaceXs and ultimately the blue origin. So anyways, crazy news out of China. Apparently the co founders of Manus are still in China and were called up to talk with the government and are now blocked. Have you seen the Dark Knight? Yes. Has everyone seen the Dark Knight? You thinking what I'm thinking? You thinking what I'm thinking? We go there, wrap our arms around him, the plane comes, grabs the balloon, sucks him out of the back of the skyscraper. It's one of the greatest scenes and I think that's what we gotta do because we need personal super intelligence. This was surprising to me because I feel like we've been messaged to for a long time that they were in Singapore. Yes, that's true. It was. That shouldn't have been seen as not a Chinese company. They're in Singapore, the whole team's in Singapore. And you would. It takes some audacity to sell your leading Chinese. One of the leading Chinese AI companies during an AI. A global AI race. This battle between great powers and to sell to a big American hyperscaler. Yep. Maybe get out of the country before you do that. Because it's not at all. I mean this doesn't. When. When the Manus acquisition happened. Yeah. Seemed very clear that you would be. If you were China. Yeah. You were competing in the AI race. Yeah. Even though Manus is not like a lab, you're still like, okay, they're building a powerful harness. Yeah, we probably don't want them going to serve. And the harnesses are incredibly, probably under more important now. Yeah, it's super important right now. Everyone, everyone, you know, obsesses over the models and the models, but the harnesses have shown incredible promise for actual diffusion and making these models. So Josh Wolf says, I thought this wasn't a Chinese company. And Delian goes for the jugular, says, so much for all the arguments about Manus not being influenced by the CCP bill. Yeah, I'm mostly shocked just about how this is playing out. You would think that if you're the CEO of Manus and you get a call from Mark Zuckerberg and it even smells like a potential acquisition, you're like, yeah, I'd love to come see the headquarters. Why don't I come and with my team, we'll just come and hang out in Menlo park or Miami for a couple months while we hash out the deal. And if the deal doesn't go through, we'll head back, but if it does, we'll just stay and we won't go back because if it goes through, then there's going to be pressure and we're going to wind up in this situation. This feels almost predictable. I don't know, it feels like there's something else going on here. I'm excited for this story to develop. The authorities are reviewing the sale. Yeah. And they're being asked not to leave. Seems hard to reverse at this point, but again, not sure why. I mean, look back at acquisitions that were blocked historically. Who knows? Yeah, who knows how feasible it is to fully block the acquisition, but they can certainly block these individuals from, you know, materially benefiting from it in some way or contributing to Meta's efforts. Well, here's some advice for the CEO of Manus. When you get here to America, when you get that liquidity, that payday from Mark Zuckerberg, open an account on public.com, investing for those that take it seriously. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries and more with great customer service. Just do it. And then, you know, tell your story. Start restreaming one livestream, 30 plus destinations. You should be multi streaming. So go to restream.com, tell your story live on the Internet. Gabriel says Meek Mill has been going off about AI. AI is helping him organize his whole music career and other businesses in days, and it's moving his business forward at A high rate. Some tech young bull I met on LinkedIn gave me an incredible template. Was probably G Stack. Yeah, yeah. Who else can help me with quad? Gabe says Drake I don't do K2. Kimmy Deep Seek that's more for your kind, my gal. More like demos Theme park Ting London, DeepMind, Meek Mill I quad coded perks out of 18th and burks. I got 500 agent lawyers trying to free Lil Dirk that's a good line Bars Drake singing you got me loco trying to be your Schultz. You didn't say Sophie chimes in sing it two chains open claw on my laptop trapping off these Mac minis shout out to YC Real GS want to stack with me. That's good. That is good. I mean, yeah, it's not a. It's not a bubble until, until G Stack makes it into. Makes it into a actual hit. The funny thing here is there's some debate and there's this general vibe, like some people were latching on this trunk fan post about like, you know, are people making fun of Meek Mill? Are people like, undercut counting his ability to actually build something for real? And the interesting thing is that I would definitely bet on Meek Mill to build a real valuable piece of software for his audience or his life or his business over any of these tech people writing rap lyrics. Even with all the powerful LLMs, the tools to actually build software are way better than the tools to write rap lyrics. And it's interesting because you are seeing this dynamic where the, like, I think a lot of people are latching onto the older paradigm of like, oh, like, you know, Jeremy Renner built an Instagram clone at one point and it was just the Jeremy Renner app and it was just his feed of his photos, and people were like, why does this exist? You can just follow Jeremy Renner on Instagram. It doesn't make sense that he would have like his own private Instagram. And he probably spent a lot of money developing that piece of software. But. And I don't think it wound up working and it didn't scale and he wound up winding that project down. But if you think about like, well, what if the. What if this cost of doing that is 100 bucks or 200 bucks or a thousand bucks, like, all of a sudden the, the hurdle rate to clear something like that actually does open up the creative aspects where I wouldn't be surprised if there's a, like, maybe not like a breakout, hyperscale, incredible like, generational company, but just like, in terms of like, you like you can be a great musical artist and also produce great clothing. Like, you will now be able to produce software at the equivalent level like it is available. And so if you are constrained by your ideas and if you're a creative artist and you have a great idea, you're no longer going to be in this world where you're like, well, I need to put a couple million bucks down for a software engineering team and they're going to not really take me seriously. And all of a sudden you get into this weird thing where like the, the app that they launch is like sort of iffy and not that good. So I don't know, I'm actually, I'm actually coming away bullish on what Meek Mill winds up producing over the next few years. And we are working on getting Meek on the show. I really hope we can talk to. I'll cover you. You're good. You're good. I'll cover Metta if you want to jump for a second. First, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. And I'm also going to tell you about Vanta Automate Compliance and Security. Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform. And I'm totally good, so I can take the next intro. I have a personal thing I'm going to run to, but I will see you guys tomorrow. Yes. Love you. Cheers. Thanks, Jordy. Up next, we have Mike from arkprize in the Restream waiting room. Let's bring him into the TVP and ultradome. I'm very excited to talk to Mike. How are you doing? Here we go. Hey Gabe, Good to see you again. Good to see you. I'm so excited. This is always the highlight of the show. I love talking to you about everything, but what are we talking about today? Reintroduce ARK as an organization and then take us through the actual. Do you even call them benchmarks, Challenges? What's the right term? Benchmarks is a fair word. Okay. Yeah. Almost three years ago now, we co founded the ArcPrize Foundation. Me and Francois Chalet. Yeah. The ARC Prize foundation has a mission to be the North Star to AGI. So sort of our sort of job. We have two of them. One is to help be a useful public sense finding tool for the public to understand how close, how far are we towards AGI or not. And the second is to inspire progress towards AGI. ARC is a series of benchmarks that help highlight what are some of the large remaining gaps between what Frontier AI is capable of and what humans are capable of. And we sort of target that gap that is sort of our definition of ultimately AGI is. We produce an ongoing series of benchmarks continually studying Frontier progress. And at some point, we are not going to be able to do that job anymore. We will run out of ideas. We'll test Frontier and say, we can't find anything else, any more gaps. And I think that'll sort of be the moment when I think it becomes commonly accepted to say, okay, yeah, we've got AGI now. And today we are announcing and launching the newest, best version of Arc AGI 3. It's the latest in the series. This is a really large format change from the first two. Ark 3 is designed to test agentic intelligence. And it is, as I, as far as I am aware, and I've been sort of interviewing folks all over the scene the last few weeks, the only unsaturated general agent benchmark in the world. The headline score is human score 100% and AI less than. Less than 1%. Okay, unpack that. Like Launch. Because my conception of Arc AGI v3 is, it's almost like a 2D game. It's no longer the puzzles where I'm picking colors to match a pattern. It's actual moving arrows on the keyboard. I.

Right. Clearing order in. Let's just rock. You're surrounded by General. Hold your position. Come. Get up. Trust the experts. 5 code. We are experts. Founder. Five coded. I see multiple journalists on the horizon. Stand by. Uav online. Glaze. Double glaze. Triple glaze. Double kill. Five. Cook. Is up. Wins. Team death match. We are experts. Triple blades. Let's just draw. Right. Market clearing order inbound. Come get up. You're surrounded by journalists. Hold your position. Break 1. Strike 2, Activate. Go. Golden retriever mode. Trust. Market clearing order inbound. Five, put it. See multiple journalists on the horizon. You're watching TVPN. Today is Wednesday, March 25, 2026. We are live from the TVP Ultra Realm. The temple of technology, the fortress of finance. The capital finance capital. Sorry. Ramp.com Time is money save. Both easy use corporate cards, bill pay accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. We have a great show for you today, folks. We got Mike from arkprize coming on the newpinator. He did it. He did it. We'll talk about this later. We have Nathan, my buddy from Air Street Capital, Rohan Dar, giving us an update on what's happening in San Francisco in the housing market. Eric Jorgensen, the author of the book of Elon's Coming on. And then Jenny Justin from Peak6 Investments coming on later. Thank you so much for tuning in today. Linear, of course, is the system for modern software development. 70% of enterprise works based on LINEAR are using agents. So there's been a debate Truth bomb dropped by Emil Michael. He says forgiving Benchmark and others would be like letting the Wuhan Institute of Virology slide back into a good reputation because the new senior manager of pandemic causation has made more friends than his predecessor. And so this got me thinking. And I'm probably gonna have to put on the steel helmet for this one because this is wading into dangerous territory defending Benchmark. But my question is, how close are we to actually being able to forgive Benchmark? When is the right time? It's been a decade. Obviously, the drama between Benchmark and Travis Kalanick was awful. I think everyone's against what happened. But the question is, what is a venture for firm? It is its partnership. If the partnership turns over at some point, like, is it a new. Is it a new team? Do you get a second shot? Can you. Can you actually change? Change the reputation? And so believe me, like, I get the Benchmark criticism. Like, Travis is truly a generational entrepreneur and was on such an amazing run, right? So he was attacked Jason, Jason from Saster was reacting to our interview with Travis and his take, which I totally agree with is it's hard to. If Travis had stayed in the role, it's hard to imagine Uber being worth less than something like a trillion dollars today. Yes. So our friend of the show Owen McCabe over at Fin AI and Intercom said Waymo is superior to Uber in literally every way. This was a year ago in March 25th actually to the day a year ago he said this in Waymo superior to Uber in literally every way that matters to consumers. Smoother, safer, more reliable, no chatty, weird, rude, rude drivers. Private, quiet, self driving car services are going to dominate their human driver incumbents and own says tbt. When I think that's throwback to. Right. Throwback to when Benchmark pushed Travis out of Uber and can the self driving division that he started literally 10 years ago. And so this is, this is what's so, so tricky about this is that and you know, uber survived. It's 150 billion market cap. It's bigger than when Travis was ousted. But getting a 2x over a decade is not what I think people were expecting from Uber under Travis's leadership. And Lyft has fallen to just 5 billion. Like he won the capital war. And Dar has done a great job managing the business. But I feel like a lot of the success of Uber is, has been built on the foundation that Travis set up. It wasn't a complete reinvention if anything they just honed down the core business. Yeah. The thing that is holding the business back right now, at least from a valuation standpoint is this big question. Yeah. Right around self driving. How you know, and Dara has answered this question thousands of times right now the strategy is to invest in self driving companies, partner with self driving companies. But so not the same as like having you know, having developed their own internal IP and product starting a decade ago and seeing where that would have been. Yeah. By now is, is just, it's hard to think about. Yeah. And so Uber is valued at 150 today. Something like that. Waymo was valued in February of this year at 126 billion. And so yes, Waymo has been working on self driving longer but you have to imagine that there's another 50 billion of market cap if you have a serious. What would Waymo be valued if Travis was the CEO? Yeah, you would get some type of Travis Premium on it. Oh just. Yeah, just the market would be, would, would Totally, totally, totally, totally. You have this sort of. Yeah. One of one entrepreneur. Yeah, 100%. And just to sort of recap where things stand, I mean, Shervin Peshavar been on the show as well. We've had like everyone from this saga in the TBP in orbit. Both Travis and Bill Gurley have been on the show. Shervin's been on the show. Emil Michael's been on the show. We've talked to a number of people that have been around this story and it's a fascinating one. It's one of the most interesting. It was certainly formative in my career because I got to Silicon Valley and this was the first big story that played out really. So Shervin said, in my opinion, Gurley single handedly destroyed hundreds of billions in value. Travis and Emil staying in charge of Uber would have led to a Tesla size win 500 billion plus for everyone, including benchmarks LPs. He nuked decades of Benchmark's reputation with founders. The market has spoken and no future Travis quality founder would ever touch him or his former firm again. Especially since three of the partners that approved of the ousting of Travis are still at the firm. And so my question is like, how many partners need to be at the firm until we can call this a ship of Theseus? So for those who are not up to speed on their Greek mythology, In Greek mythology, Theseus is the mythical king of the city of Athens. He rescues the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur, which is his mythical beast. And then he escapes onto a ship going to Delos. Each year the Athenians would commemorate this success by taking the ship on a pilgrimage to Delos to honor Apollo. Over time because they're sailing the ship every year, various of its timbers rotted and were replaced. A question was raised by ancient philosophers. If no pieces of the original ship remained in the current ship, is it still the ship of Theseus? If it was no longer the same, when had it ceased existing as the original ship? So some people might say 50 50. Some people might say yes, it is the same ship because replacing one board at a time, the ship is the concept and you can swap everything out 25 times, it's still the same ship. It there isn't like it's a paradox. There is no right answer. It's a philosophical question. But it applies, I think to Benchmark. Because back when Kalanick resigned as Uber CEO on June 20th of 2017 after investor in pressure, after investor pressure that included Benchmark on that exact date, benchmarks equal GP rise roster was Bill Gurley Eric Vistra, Matt Kohler, Mitch Lasky, Peter Fenton, Sarah Tavel. Today, the partnership has changed dramatically. The only two that remain are Peter and Eric. And you have Chetten, EV Randall and Jack Altman, who are new to the partnership post the Uber scandal. And so it's not a full ship of Theseus, but only one third of the original 2017 partnership remains. And my question for those who remain reluctant to forgive benchmark is like, what happens is if Peter and Eric retire or leave at some point and the full ship of Theseus is complete, like, maybe yield ship. Yeah. Right now. Right now, 40% of the 40% of the partnership was there. 33%. Oh, I mean, I guess two out of the five. Yeah. So two out of the five, because they've added three. But only one third of the original partnership remains. The question is, did Chitan, Everett and Jack come in and as part of the interview process, say, like, you're absolutely right. I mean, now to defend the three. Ev had just graduated from college, like, he was truly, like, not involved in the Uber scandal. And yet, you know, people will visit upon him knowing Everett and Jack. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure during the interview process, they were like, I. You know, the storied firm. Yeah. I'm excited to join, but we can never do. Yeah. Never do anything like that again. And so. And so one. One question that's worth asking is. It's like, is the firm that did this and ultimately, you know, stained this. This storied brand. Yeah. And has certainly suffered the consequences. Right. They've put up in, you know, incredible returns since then, but I'm sure they've missed a lot of deals that would have made their returns even better because of that kind of narrative around the firm. And so they have. They. I would say, you know, Emil, Michael, and others are upset that they're doing great deals at all. Yeah. But I think it. Is that a question I have is like, are they. If they're in a situation. Again. Right. In the same situation kind of situation, are they more. What. What decision are they more or less likely to make? Right. I would. I would argue, like, they are probably less likely to. I would think so Go against the founder, given. Given how this entire situation has played out. Yeah. Yeah. The only. The only steel man. And this is. This needs the full steel helmet because it's so hard to steel man. The benchmark thing. But the full steel man of the benchmark thing, it's really bad. It's really bad to bench. I'm sorry. For everyone. I'm sorry. But it's basically that every partner at Benchmark, that it's an equal partnership. So every partner was going to make a clean $1 billion. They were all going to be billionaires from this one deal. And it was such a power law that, that like there was no path to becoming a billionaire for, you know, from the other, from the other investments, most likely. And so you see the endless 247 hit piece pile stack up and you got Mike Isaac bloodhounded at the New York Times writing books they're turning into movies. It's getting rough. It's getting rough. Mike Isaac's at your door. Yeah, Mike Isaac's at, is at the door. The barbarians are at the gate. And you're like, I'm either a billionaire or I'm going back to a paltry 10 million. And I can't do that. I can't do that. And so they freak out and they're like, we gotta salvage this thing. We gotta just push it out in the public markets. We gotta get out of this name. And so they basically just, it's just too nerve wracking. And yeah, it's not a strong steel, man. But I think, I think that's a little bit more of what happened than, than like taking a stand on like, oh, like this particular thing that happened was so egregious. It was more just like, okay, like wow, all my money, like 99% of my net worth is in this asset. And it's looking like it could be a zero because Lyft is coming from behind. There's a whole bunch of VCs they're piling into that. The narrative is totally flipping. There's a Boycott U campaign like, and everyone's like, ah, what's going on? I got to get out of this. I got to salvage this. And I think that was maybe more of the underpinning than like I'm taking some sort of like moral stand on a particular hit piece or something like that. Anyway, it's rough. But fortunately, you know, ship Theseus process, maybe it happens, I don't know. Would Delian accept that argument? Probably not. Would Emile? Probably not. But they're not making it any easier with the Manus investment either because there was a world where it was like, okay, yeah, the Uber thing happened a decade ago. The partnership is basically entirely new and they're focused on. But it's. But it's not there yet. Yes, it's just not there yet. It's not there yet. But I still there I think you can rewrite this in five years. Yeah, you, yeah, you made this point that this. It's too early to call this but, but that I think it's directionally given that the firm is still, is still putting up great returns. They've gotten to a bunch of great companies over the last five years. I think we are on, on a path to the, to the, to the benchmark. Well, yeah, Venture Lazard, the venture ship of Theseus and VC Bragg said Airbnb has no homes, Uber has no cars and Benchmark has no partners. Of course that was an exaggeration. But they did get down to just three partners, which is very, very small for a venture capital firm. Some have dozens of partners but different strategy and we will see where it goes. Anyway, let me tell you about AppLovin. Profitable advertising, easy with Axon AI. Get access to over 1 billion daily active users and grow your business today. And let me also tell you about Lambda Lambda is the super intelligence cloud building AI, supercomputers for training and inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. So Sora, rest in peace. Sora, the app is leaving. Ev is in the chat. There he is. Class of 17 represent. Yes, yes. Ev was chuggin beers while Uber was getting ousted. Do not visit the sins of the father on the son. That's what I would say. Ev not guilty. Ev was a Boulder. Yeah, he was hanging out. He was at what happened senior year. What happened? I think, I think, I think Ev deserves a fair shake and should not and should not have to bear the cross from the question. The real question. Do EV and Jack pull a benchmark and force out the original partners? They don't have the legal control to do so, but neither did they during the Callan expire. At this point, Ev is probably already getting calls from Sequoia to come be the senior steward. You know, he's on a meteoric rise. Really all over the place today. Anyway, Sora is now. Is it still in the App Store? I think it's like the announcement was that it will be leaving the App Store. Millions of people have made content on the app. You have to leave it running for some amount of times. There's a phase out. But the announcement happened and now it is going out. And I have a bunch of takes on this. Obviously this is not the end of video creation for OpenAI. This will be rolled into ChatGPT. I imagine Tyler Hodge put it well bullish. Killing products quickly is hard. Almost no one can do it. It's a good sign for OpenAI. They're consolidating in many ways. It's like last week you heard about the Code Red was like a month or two ago. And then it was like, we're refocusing. And then it's like, here's step one of refocusing a single app that we're going to push everything together. And also, I just, I've enjoyed making some videos in Sora. I've never enjoyed having to go to a separate app. I want all of that to live in one place. So that makes a lot of sense. Let's see what Dax said. It's lame to see all the people saying, ha, I called it. I knew Sora wouldn't work. Yeah, duh. Because everyone thought that, including me, who were working on it, they probably learned a lot trying to make it work. Anyway, for every successful thing that exists, a hundred efforts like this had to fail. And those learnings are fed into making something that ultimately does work and provides you with a steady paycheck. Yes. It's interesting because this quote of like people saying, ha, I called it. I knew Sora would work. That is not how I interpreted the vibes around the Sora launch. Like, I went back and revisited the essay that I wrote. On October 1st, we had the slop versus farming debate. I was really on a tear back then. Slop is bad. We, the timeline, don't want to be pigs at the trough. We don't like it when tech leaders treat us like farm animals. But we love farming. Farming is lindy. We, the timeline, want to return to a world where we are filling up troughs with slop on a daily basis, I guess. So between Google, DeepMind, Meta Superintelligence and OpenAI, we now have three different variations on AI video products. Each met with slightly different responses. So the interesting thing here is that Google has been charging ahead, launching it. It's in shorts and that's just been like not a story at all. What was interesting was that the. The vibes around both Meta Vibes and Sora were like, this is going to one shot humanity. They're like, this is going to be too successful. Yeah, that was. It was like. It was. It was like a entertainment doom loop. Exactly. You could imagine. Exactly it. Just getting so good at generating the next thing that you would want to see better than even a billion humans on Instagram could do. And that's not what we've seen so far. And so like my big question was like, will this actually be sticky? Will people like this? And at what Rate. I mean I read LLM generated text daily, but I also read a ton of not LLM generated text. And my ratio has grown exponentially. But it hasn't gone to 100%, nowhere near it. Like probably 5% of the text that I read is LLM. I mean we should actually revisit how we were processing it during launch when it was rocketing. We should just throw on that three hour stream and just watch that and react to how our teams were that day. But even at the time I remember saying very obvious that they built like a very cool creative tool and and they have the potential to see a network with this. There's all this novel content they had allowing creators and people like Sam to allow people to use their ip. It was very, very well executed launch. But even from the beginning it was like, okay, obviously cool creative tool. It's a totally different ball. This come for the tool, stay for the network has been an enduring. It's Chris sticks on strategy. Right. Chris Dixon probably wrote that in like 2014 maybe or like a long time ago over. Over 10 years ago. Yeah. But just because you build a tool that is attached to a network like that jump is just really, really, really, really tough. Especially when there are three or four or five serious networks that are at scale that can on day one support the format of the file that is produced from the model. So in a world where generative AI video came out not in a MP4 file or an MOV file, it came out in some sort of format that could never be uploaded to Instagram reels. Then you have a chance to build a network and run away with it. And this was the story of Instagram. Instagram just had better support for images than Facebook did. And then vine had support for video literally before Instagram. So Instagram, it was like, I have a video on my phone. It's cool. I want to share it. Yeah. Sharing it to Instagram was not possible. Yeah. Now on day one, you generate an AI video. You want to share it. You can share it on TikTok. Yeah. It's just the incentive if you create, if you created an amazing video on. On Sora. Yeah. What is the most logical thing to do if you're a creator and you want reach post it to Instagram. There's just naturally there's billions of people there. There were millions of people on Sora and a lot of energy, momentum. Yeah. And it's not lost on me that the same day that Sora was killed, you have a Viral Breakout, reality TV style series putting up incredible numbers on TikTok for fruit. Love Island, I believe it's called. It's an AI generated twist. On Love island, there's. There's romantic intrigue and plot lines and stories and consistent characters and a lot of things that have come from a variety of AI models. And we should talk to the person that's the entrepreneur behind that project because I would be interested to know what the stack is, because I imagine it's not just going to a single gen AI app. I imagine that they have a whole pipeline of workflow in place to actually generate that. And so. So we're at this weird moment where Sora, the app is going away, but we're also seeing more and more AI generated content. Slowly see success. Whether that's the podcast that's at the top of the charts that's fully AI generated, there's this Love island show. There's a number of niches where they found the right product market fit for AI generated content. But it's not overnight. We're living in infinite jest and we just can't look away. It's like for specific things, it makes a lot of sense. And so it's working there. Yeah. It's interesting to think about Google's strategy with video. Even Google was like, we cannot operate this for free at scale 250. John, you were. No, that was the discounted rate. Oh, I think I had 500amonth or something. It was like an entry to start. It was like $250 a month and it was brutally. Weight limited. Limited. Like, yeah, even. Even with. We were laughing at this because three a day. I remember we'd be like at the gym in the morning, you would fire off a couple prompts. Yeah. And. And then you were like, rate. I hope I got it right. Yeah, you wouldn't get it right. Then you were rate limited. And you're like, wait, I'm rate limited on a. On a $250 plan that's going to jump to 500. You're probably paying. Gotta check the ramp. Yeah, check our ramp. I saw it. It's probably paying 500amonth still. No, seriously. And. And that. And that. And that's Google with all this. Literally a hyperscaler insane data advantage with YouTube and. And that. Let me tell you, rate limits kill retention. Like nothing. Nothing is worse. If you're in Instagram. The endless scroll exists. TikTok, you can, you can scroll endlessly. You can use the. Imagine if TikTok was like, after five minutes, you have to close the app and come back in 20 minutes. Minutes. Like how successful do we think that would be? It would be a disaster. And that was the experience for Both Sora and VO3 where you would fire off a prompt and it would be like, okay, come back in a couple minutes, it's gonna take me a while to cook. And then you fire off five and it's like, okay, we're doing no more for today. And then the next day happens and you forget about it and you go on something else. So clearly the compute constraints are immense and there's just so much more value. Value that can come from enterprise and can come from deep research and so many of the other models that are immediately economically valued, like Codegen, like enterprise workflows. And it's maybe more boring and less viral and less controversial, but it's where the compute needs to go. And so I think you're going to see the chips be moved around inside of all the labs to like compute will find the most optimal output. Like the tokens of the most value will always be the ones that it float that the compute flows to. And as a lot of people predicted, like just endless random generations that aren't quite dialed yet. Even the best video models, like they're just not there. They require a lot of work. Is not the same as where we are in terms of knowledge retrieval, where we are in terms of code gen. It's just way more valuable. So anyway, let me tell you about Okta. Okta helps you assign every AI agent a trusted identity. So you get the power of AI without the risk. Secure every agent, secure any agent. Thank you guys. And let me also tell you about Cisco. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real time experiences and new value with Cisco market clearing order inbound. What do they say? September People overestimate how much brain route happens in a year and underestimate how much much brain route happens in a decade. So yes, yes, we're still so I mean I'm using brain route pejoratively there, but I do think that this move does not really bend the curve of just AI generated content. But I still think it's a slow rollout. It's fast in the sense that we went from no slop on the timeline to lots and we went from actually zero. It was like one, one cool AI video. Harry Potter, Balenciaga was like entertaining to general people. And now we get like five and then we get like next year we'll get like 20 and then eventually it'll be like hundreds and it'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm actually into that. Like, people are into cartoons and people are into CGI movies and superhero movies. Some people will be into it. Some people will never like it. Some people will always say, I want a black and white film from the 40s. That's what I want to watch. And these rollouts, the diffusion of this stuff will happen. Should we revisit one of the wheat? Davidson says, what is this? Y' all are worried about the wrong Open Claw. This is a good post. This is the open claw that Ev Randall was worried about in 2017. He was not thinking about, was White claw invented in 2017? When did white Claw get found? That's a great. I feel like it really took off. It had a fast takeoff. Yeah. 2016. 2016. Okay. It's a very good chance. He was an early adopter. He might have been an early adopter of openclaw. It truly was open. I'm calling it openclaw now. White Claw did have a fast takeoff for sure. It went from zero to 60 and it was just everywhere all of a sudden. Anyway, let me tell you about Sentry. Sentry shows developers what's broken, helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their app. I got a story for you, Jordy. Today, as I was driving into Hollywood from my hometown of Pasadena, I was driving through Hollywood and I look over and there is a new Hollywood sign. I'm not kidding about this. I actually saw this. I took a picture. I can maybe send it into the chat, but I can just show you because I'm driving and I just see this. Like Billy Bowman. Billy Bowman. I don't know. I'll send it into the chat so they can pull it up. Let me see production. Here we go. But anyway, it is a remarkable story because Fiverr is running a one of the coolest out of home campaigns. Like just from an out of home inventory. I didn't know you could do this. Let's. We can pull up either my picture or we can pull up. Let's pull up this video from KTLA 5. KTLA 5 had a video breaking down. What's going on? Let's watch this and then we'll react to this. And while the team pulls that up, I'm going to tell everyone about Labelbox, RL environments, voice robotics evals and expert human data. Label Box is the data factory behind the world's leading AI teams. So let's pull up the KTLA 5 report about AI coming for Hollywood. The mysterious sign along the 101 under the A logo for Fiverr and a search box says find the best AI directors. It's a brash, bold statement. Brash, bold. Coming for Hollywood. Coming for Fiverr has made a name for itself connecting projects with freelancers. Now they're launching an AI video hub which they say can make content at a fraction compared to traditional production. This Billy Bowman guy is one of the directors that you can hire. He's based in Sweden. He's made AI videos for Google, Universal Music Group and others. As you know, I really hasn't taken over Hollywood yet, but it certainly crept into commercials. Brands like Google and Jeep rolling out AI on national campaigns. Many are slowly are slowing rather to see the 30 foot sign which went up over the weekend. I first noticed it in traffic yesterday morning after someone was so entranced they rear ended somebody. It's causing accidents. Yeah. So interesting AI director. So it's basically someone who, who puts the prompt into the machine and chooses, is Fiverr gonna pay? Just put the prompt in the box, buddy. That's a great question. Yeah, yeah. Can they be held liable for such a distracting sign? I didn't, you know, flush with money. Whether or not it is a bubble, like you can debate. That's interesting because Fiverr is not one of those companies. A KTLA. KTLA 5 is not prepared for it not to be a bubble. So Fivers market cap now is $560 million and that's down about 95% over the last five years. Are you seeing that? I'm seeing 350. Sorry. Yeah, 359. What did I say? 500. Oh, sorry. So it's a $360 million company today, down 95% from. From five years ago. It started selling off in 2021, sort of pre chatgpt. So I think the AI narrative might be a little bit overblown there. It did IPO around this price. It was a $700 million IPO. I think maybe a billion dollars went through a massive boom during COVID and then. And then sold off. But of course the AI wave has not been kind to Fiverr because a lot of the tasks like, you know, generate AI is very, very, very good at $5. Creative work. Exactly $25. Obviously the prices go well beyond $5 since, since, since the early days. But in terms of the kind of projects that I always use Fiverr for AI, just one shots, all of that. And the nature of Fiverr is like you have to define your task In a prompt. It's not, it's not. Oh, have like a long conversation, get drinks with somebody. That was often, that was often the better bottle. That was the bottle. Yeah, totally. It. Do this task. Yeah. I need like 10 minutes to like properly all these things. Yeah. It's honestly way more time than you spend prompting normally. Because with prompting you're just like, I'll just try it. Yeah. A few times, kind of iterate, hit my rate limits and then fire back up. Yeah. I mean it was always a bottleneck. I remember as an entrepreneur, I found out about Fiverr and I was like, this is amazing. I can get random stuff done for five bucks. But the time commitment, actually finding the right person, making sure the reviews are good, it wound up being like hours of work. And if you have a consistent flow, you're better off just hiring a person. So the, the. So they got kind of squeezed in the middle. Yeah. The market is, is not excited about Fiverr right now. They're being valued basically at four times ebitda. Okay. And so. Yeah, but this is an interesting pivot for them. They're basically saying that you can come to us to hire someone who has all the tooling set up to actually sit there and, and sort of nanny all the AI models because it is a hassle. As you described with me and VO3. I was sitting there like, okay, I fire off four prompts, then I go back. It's way better if you're on the API and you have Higgs Field wired up and you have Runway ML and you have access to the Chinese model Cdance, the right tool for the job. And then you do fine tune on someone's face. There's a whole bunch of things that you can do to get, get better results, but it takes time and it's a hassle and it's more of a professional job. It's not actually at a word. Here's the main problem with the campaign. Yes. Is that Billy Bowman is a real person with his own website, with his own Instagram. You can just go and reach out to him. Which is interesting because like the primary issue with these labor marketplaces like Fiverr disintermediation. If a business hires somebody on Fiverr and has an amazing experience, eventually they're just going to go direct because they build up a lot of trust. And it's very different than a platform like Uber where you don't necessarily want the same driver every time because they're not around you and all these things. And so the reason that the fivers and the upworks of the world. And there's been a bunch of other engineering focused marketplaces just have never reached like insane scale. Like Uber is because of the disintermediation. And this campaign is effectively an ad for Billy Bowman, who you could just go hire today. Yeah, disintermediation has always been a problem on these platforms. Anyway, let's move on. Let me. But first, let me tell you about Fin AI, the number one AI agent for customer service. If you want AI to handle your customer support, go to Fin AI. And let me also tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Speaking of stocks, did you see that Bombardier, the manufacturer of private business jets, is down 10% over the past month? A lot of people were wondering why this was happening. I think we now know why. And it's probably because the shot across the bow from United Airlines. So what competes with a private jet? Potentially, United Airlines new product, which is an entire row of economy seats. We gotta pull this up. United Airlines says the entire row is all yours. Welcome to the United Relax row. Three adjacent United economy seats with adjustable leg rests that can be raised or lowered to create a cozy lie flat space for stretching out. You'll also get a mattress pad, blanket and two pillows if you're traveling with kids. A plushie too. United Relax row will be available starting next year on more than 200 of the 787s and 777s, each with up to 12 of these brand new rows. So what do you think, Jordy? Is this the way I was telling Tyler Cosgrove, who is out of the studio today? He's in Washington D.C. he's got a demo. This. He's got to get on one of these. I don't know. Every time the airline announces something, it's always like five years until it actually is available. I've been waiting for starlink for a long time. Took a long time for that to get rolled out from the PR release. United has pretty good pace. Okay. They've been quick to. So you think Tyler could get on this tomorrow or today? He's going to the airport today, I think. I think if Tyler's resourceful enough, he could just. If he ended up in a row. Yeah. Two empty seats next to him. He could just figure out a way to detach the armrest. Okay. Walking this. Yeah. And just kind of. Kind of build your own. Yeah. He might. They might have to land the plane and arrest him. Yeah. But potentially worth the Risk he could also potentially negotiate with whoever's sitting next to him. Say, hey, you go and spend the entire flight in the lavatory. And in exchange, I will vibe code you a sloppy app of which I don't understand what programming languages used. I'll trade you an app for your seat. I'll trade you an app for your seat. And somebody might be like, that's amazing. I don't have anyone that can vibe code for me. This is too good. No, I'm sorry, Ryan Peterson says now we just need to put it stairs on the food drink carts so you can climb over the top of them to get to the bathroom instead of holding. Yeah, this just. This just feels like. This just feels very, very chaotic. But this is good. This is wild. Good. I don't know. Starlink, a relax row. A dream. I. I think that this could be a good option. United built the product that everyone who has been. Who has ever been on a plane wanted, says John Collison. John, you need to work on fixing Bombardier's stock price. I don't think it's related. Oh, apparently Air New Zealand launched this in 2010. No, it is related because he should help them build out their pipeline. Well, he's just pumping his bags because he owns a property in Ireland. How do you get there? You gotta fly on United. So, you know, one hand washes the other on this. He's talking his own book. No, just kidding. Let me tell you about console.com. console builds AI agents that automate 70% of it. HR and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. And let me also tell you about Railway. Railway is the all in one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agent to deploy web apps, servers, databases, and more, while Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, and security. And Carter says if you say no to pretzels, the flight attendant should give you something called a coin of restraint. Well, worth not nothing. Now, these coins will play a major role in the afterlife. The coin of restraint is very, very good. I like that. Well, Elon Musk is teasing something cooler than a minivan. That might come because Elon said the cybertruck rear bench has three seats of Isofix attachments and is wide enough to fit three child seats or three adults. So there's been a big debate on the Isofix attachments. These are the little metal hooks that are installed in every car in the backseat for child seats. And so child seat requirements mean that you have to have a car that has these. And it's been Called like the death of the five kid family or something like that. Or like the death of the big family. Because at a certain point, in order to have another kid, you have to upgrade your car, and that has an expense associated with it. You need a three row SUV or you need a minivan, or you need something bigger. That's not as. That's not as affordable as, you know, just a normal sedan. They used to be able to just throw four kids across and maybe that was less safe. Regulation killed the birth rate. People actually say this. People say that child seats have saved like a million lives, but then they've stopped 10 million from being born. They talk about the relative exchange ratios. I haven't really dug into it too much, but there's clearly demand for more spacious vehicles with more seating. The Model S used to come with a third row, which I still don't understand how that was possible. Possible. The Model X came with a third row and there was. And in China, they actually sell a model Y L, which is a long wheelbase version of the Model Y. I hope they bring that to the space. People are saying, make a minivan. Elon. Elon says something way cooler than a minivan is coming. What do you think it is? And people are speculating. Garcia here. I think it might be a data center. Tesla, I think you might be like, there's another data center coming. Chip fab. Yeah. Chip fabric. He's like, you. You're gonna be able. I'm gonna. And. And you're not gonna. Texas is gonna change the child labor law. Yeah. That instead of worrying about bringing your kids around, they'll just go work. No, they're in the fat. They're in the fat. Clean room. They're in the clean room. They're fully suited up. They're making chips. But no, people are speculating. This is very cool. Gen AI has been amazing for car enthusiasts to create basically their own concept cars. These look very, very cool. We were talking about. I mean, it's funny because they make a Tesla that looks. Look. Make a Tesla version of the Rivian. Yeah, it looks exactly like it. But let's. Let's get into some of the speculation. So, okay, what are people thinking? Cyan Bannister says, An RV, that could be fun. Arthur McWhotter says, I can't wait for the next roadster unveil. Elon was teasing. It was on Joe Rogan. Right. This concept of maybe it'll fly. And I think what Elon could be. Could be getting at is picture a roadster not A great family car. Hard to put kids in a sports car. Some of them you technically can, but it's so uncomfortable and kind of chaotic. Very few people would. And I think what we could see is the roadster comes with five kind of like, you know that Fury collaborative combat aircraft from Andrew. Yes. What if it comes with like up to five little mini roadster roadsters that are just trained to autopilot behind the primary roadster so you can be in your sports car and then however many kids you have are in the mini drones following. That'd be fun. What about a Chinook heavy lift helicopter with two massive rotors that can lift your roadster off the ground? Yes, technically a flying car then. Yeah. Anyway, let me tell you about Phantom cash. Fund your wallet without exchanges or middleman and spend with a phantom card. I have a question for you, Jordy. Are you running the new AI model? It's on cowork. It's literally on copilot. You can probably find it on Codex. Dude, it's on co author. It's a cosign exclusive. It's on cocaine. You can run it on cocaine. You can literally go to cocaine and run it. What a great copy. Pasta. This is one of the funniest. Funniest formats. But yes, the war for co pilot and cowork is heating up. We gotta find a new term. I think people have been really, really fighting. Well, I was telling Microsoft they should. Nate, just name it Coco. Coco. Microsoft copilot co work. It's just Coco. Coco would be good. There's a few different. There's a few different options. I do. I think I prefer the non anthropomorphized AI names, although they are a little bit colliding in the namespace. I have been a fan of the Codexes and coworks and Copilots. Those feel more collaborative to me and they feel more like tools than the Bards and the series and the Alexas and the Rufus and the Sparkys. Like that. That's just a different vibe. And I think they're. That if we're living in a world where people are going to form strong relationships with these tools, introducing them truly as tools is probably. Let's see what's going on with qvc. Let's pull.