NEWSMAX

But when you're not dead, hanging, what should people be doing with the new coding agents? How important is it to learn to code? How important is it to. Look, there are two. Everybody's worried about their future, but there are basically two ways to know you have a future. One, you have some vocational training, so it's like. Or two, you're neurodivergent. And when I say neurodivergent, I mean broadly defined. Your guys are sitting here. You could have had a corporate tool job. You could have been like, I don't want to pick on Goldman, but like, just say, you know, like a job. I applied there. They turned me down. Well, yeah, I did work at C. You could, you could have a job where you're like, yeah, no, actually, maybe they didn't know the right way to test. Yeah, like, it's like, yeah, they were like, like, you know, whatever. I'm not picking on one or the other. I'm just saying, you, you, you know, the like, you are probably here. You think you're here because da, da, da. But it's actually, you probably wouldn't have been able to do that shit because there's like, it's the same thing as sit down in class and learn some bullshit. Like, and you just regurgitate it. Like, that's not a valuable thing if you are actually have insights into anything and you have real technical expertise. Like, you know, you can look at a company, but you actually can look at it because you know something about how these things work or something about how clients work. You know, then all the other stuff that used to be precious, like being able to do low encoding, being able to do low end luring, being able to do low end reading and writing. I mean, this is like, I feel like Odin came down and was like, I'm gonna make the world just right for dyslexic. It's like, yeah, I. Odin has come down from. Or Locky has come down and said, you know what, Carp? You suffered so much as a kid. Yeah, I'm just gonna make the whole world so everyone else can suffer. I don't want that. It's like now. But it's really an inversion. Like, everybody with like the normal shape skills are dyslexics because like, meaning the thing they can do that used to be valuable is not so valuable. The thing that they need to learn to do is like be more of an artist, look at things from a different direction, be able to build something unique. And you see this.

Important is it to learn to code? How important is it to look? There are two. Everybody's worried about, like their future. But there are basically two ways to know you have a future. One, you have some vocational training. Okay, so it's like. Or two, you're neurodivergent. And when I say neurodivergent, I mean broadly defined. Like, you guys are sitting here. You could have had a corporate tool job. You could have been like, I don't want to pick on Goldman, but like just say, you know, like a job. I applied there. They turned me down. Well, yeah, I did work at Citadel. You could have a job where you're like, no, actually, maybe they didn't know the right way to test. Yeah, like, it's like, yeah, they were like, like, you know, whatever. I'm not picking on one or the other. I'm just saying you, you, you know, the like, you are probably here. You think you're here because. But it's actually, you probably wouldn't have been able to do that because there's like, it's the same thing as sit down in class and learn some like. And you just regurgitate it. Like, that's not a valuable thing if you are actually have insights into anything and you have real technical expertise. Like, you know, you can look at a company, but you actually can look at it because you know something about how these things work or something about how clients work. You know, then all the other stuff that used to be precious, like being able to do low end coding, being able to do low end lowering, being able to do low end reading and writing. I mean, this is like, I feel like Odin came down and is like, I'm going to make the world just right for dyslexic. It's like, yeah, I've. Odin has come down from. Or Locky has come down and said, you know what, Karp? You suffered so much as a kid. I'm just gonna make the whole world so everyone else can suffer. I don't want that. It's like now, but it's really an inversion. Like everybody with like the normal shape skills are dyslexics because like the meaning, the thing they can do that used to be valuable is not so valuable. The thing that they need to learn to do is like be more of an artist, look at things from a different direction, be able to build something unique. And you see this on the battlefield, like one of the most underappreciated.

Though it's funny people out there every conspiracy theorist thinks yeah it's insane. I'm the only one conspiracy theorists. You may hate this but there's one person protecting your rights to be a conspiracy theorist that actually has a seat at the table and that person is me. You may not you may not want to hear that truth but it's it is true and maybe do a little more reading before you pontificate on your absurd and obviously ill informed and many times stupid opinions. Okay so because like you're attacking the person who's protecting you idiot. It's like so stupid. Do do use one of the bots to correct your opinion. It's like I'm being attacked online now. It's like Dr. Karp is anti progressive because of my whole life. I'm just telling you the truth. These things are going to take your job. Okay so then but in the war fighting context and it's the primary justice.

Moment, amplifying all the energy in the entire broader industry into like one singular day, minute, hour. What is the strategy there currently? Where do you want.

You know what I mean? Just because they don't have that level. Not. Not that they're not that. The. The talent's not as good. They just don't have access to the kind of bull power that we do here. Are there any science or technology stories?

Autonomous systems is complex. It's a marriage of hardware and software. You're going to get it in the field, make it work, and it takes time. And this is not just for us, it's the industry. And what we're seeing for us, for sure, but the industry more generally is that the technology is maturing. Right. And we're making it useful with customers. So we're on an adoption curve. So, you know, the history of the company is we've been developing technology for a number of years. That's the core. Yeah. What was the first product? Was it actually, like you build a product, you sell it to the government? Was that what that was? Yeah, essentially. So we've got our first.

Recurring program, business. And the thing about the markets are a lot of what we're doing is infrastructure. So think about counter drone. There's a massive number of locations across the world that need to be protected. And this is not going to be just, hey, this year we're going to protect from, from, from drone threats. It's 10 years to build this cycle. This is too big. It's recurring that way. The last two weeks have taught us anything is that it's any targets on the table, commercial or military particularly. Yeah, I mean, you know, they attack the economy. Right. And I think this is a threat that we're seeing today. The public safety, the Homeland Security officials, the Department of War, they've been preparing for this for a long, long time. But it's hard. So you're seeing a lot of technologies, including ours, that we're under a faster pace of maturation, but we're here. It's going to happen, but it's going to take some time and it is urgent. And so then the other question is, I get a lot is okay, what happens if peace breaks out? Well, I don't know that anyone's expecting that soon, but eventually we hope that that does happen. We, we still have to have this protection because you can't be vulnerable. The lower skies, as they say, technology has now made them. It's a different threat than we've ever had, particularly US Soil. So again, you asked about the business model. You can think about this as an infrastructure bill for a decade or longer. And then of course, when you're installing infrastructure, you have to service it, you have to upgrade it. So there's a lot of recurring elements here in our financial model that makes a ton of sense. Well, thank you so much for taking the.

Would not give this, you know, a 10 out of 10 blizzard. All right, well, we got, we got high winds. Just say you've never been to the east coast before. True. Once been a few times. You got to jack it on. We're a long way from the west. We're a long way from the TVP and ultradome. We will be back there tomorrow. There's a ton of news that's going on, shaking the timeline that we will be covering in detail tomorrow. Dwarkesh Patel dropped a response to the Department of War's moves to designate anthropic a supply chain risk. There's a whole bunch of interesting, nuanced conversation. We're going to get into some of that today. Patrick Collison talked about the nature of drama in Silicon Valley. A very interesting thread that I think we can have a long conversation about tomorrow. And Microsoft is fast following OpenAI and Anthropic with Copilot Health. And OpenAI plans to fold SORA into GPT as the sort of productization of consumer LLMs continues. So we'll be covering those stories tomorrow. We want to say thank you to all of our sponsors that make the show possible. It'll be a little bit of a shorter show today, but we have a banger lineup. So we're going to kick it off with Dan Ives. Wait. Welcome to the show. Dan Ives. How you doing? Well, it's happening. Thank you so much for taking the time and on this very, very cold day to hop on with us. First, introduce yourself. Tell us what you do, why you're here. Yeah. Dan Ives, I've covered tech stocks going back to late 90s on Wall Street. And look for me, I mean, being here at Palantir, it's one of our favorite names, you know, the last few years, to me, it's the AI revolution. It's almost been the poster child. And in my career, going back to early days of Apple, Tesla, it's always trying to find who could be the next one of those. And my view the last few years is Palantir has been what I view is kind of the golden child of AI. Yeah. How do you work on separating the narrative? The company say every company comes out and slaps AI on something, rename slaps AI on their domain versus. It's showing up in the financials, it's showing up in the metrics. There's only one Carp and one Palantir. And I think if you look at the numbers, numbers speak for themselves. And I think the commercial business has really been what's been the jaw dropper for Wall street because I think that alone could really ultimately be combined with the government business $1 trillion company in the next two to three years. I think Palantir continues to be one where I think investors continue to underestimate just how big they're going to be in this AI revolution. Yeah, I remember reading the Airbus case study a while back. Have you talked to anyone today doing anything particularly interesting in the commercial sector with Palantir who sticks out? 90% of customers here weren't here two years ago. Oh yeah. So I think it just shows now obviously they've dominated the government, dominated what we've seen across the board the last few years. But when it comes to commercial they've really changed the whole game. And I think what you're seeing is with the AI revolution when it comes to use cases, Palantir is the first call. And I think that's something that's still not factored into the stock in terms of how big the commercial business could be for Palantir. Because when you look at the AI revolution of course Nvidia, Microsoft, you have the semi plays, you have software. But I think Palantir is going to be, when we look out in the next few years they are going to be one of the clear standouts in terms of this fourth industrial revolution. What advice do you have for investors who are seeing geopolitical tensions rise, war, there's chaos in the markets, things are jumping up and down. How do you keep a cool head right now? I mean look in 25 years doing this it's like if you sold because of geopolitical in terms of those issues that was the wrong move the last few decades and I think it's one where you take a step back. We are in a fourth industrial revolution. I think tech stocks ultimately make new all time highs this year. But you have to navigate the volatility in the white knuckles. The haters come out, the bears maybe win the day. But I think this will be short lived and that's why if you look what we see from Nvidia to Microsoft to Salesforce Servicenow and to names like Palantir and some of the cybersecurity, you have to own the winners in these white knuckle moments. Have you been following the latest with Nvidia? They're going to be training their own open source models. A thesis of what that means for the company. Yeah, I think they'll talk about more GTC next week but, but it's our view Nvidia look There's only one godfather of AI, it's Jensen Nvidia. And they're now going to own more and more of that end to end platform. And I think look, that's the smartest move. And the reality is, is that they're years ahead when it comes to chips. But when it comes to physical AI, the two best players in physical are going to be Nvidia and Tesla. In terms of the two physical, best physical AI plays, I mean cars, humanoid, ro. Thoughts? Both. What do you think? Look, I think when it comes to autonomous, I mean, and you know Jensen talked about this, you know, when we were there at ces, they are looking to go after what's going to be a trillion dollar market opportunity. Now I continue to think Tesla is going to be the ultimate winner when it comes to autonomous. But for Nvidia, yeah, the chips are ultimately going to be fueled by Nvidia. Everyone trying to play catch OEM is going to need a autonomy stack. They're going to need the self driving capability in some degree. Even if you know, people are just driving the weekend the car on the weekend for fun, they're still going to want to be able to throw it into autonomous mode to get home at the end of the day. An 8 year old today doesn't need a driver's license when they're 16. And I think, I think going back to your point, it's easy to get in these moods where geopolitical white knuckle moments. But if you look, I think ultimately Tesla autonomous is worth a trillion dollars going to a Tesla story. And I think Nvidia, a year from now we're looking at 5, you know, 5 trillion we talk about but I think 6 trillion markup by 2027 still continues to be our call. Yeah, you were at ces. What else did you see that was cool? What was under the radar? What were like the small trends, the little gadgets. I feel like CES is sort of like World's Fair for cool tech. Yeah. Like what stuck out to you? Not even as an investor, just personally you were like that was fun. Look, I think robotics, like when you look like serve robotics would be a good example like autonomous in terms of what we see. The robotics coming out I think is really going to be really toss of physical. I, I think that is really going to be the game changer. And who are the chip players that are going to fuel that? Of course it's in video but then you look down the sort of semi food chain. I think robotics we talk about optimus with Tesla humanoid robotics, we are still in the early days of where this is all going. I think, look, CES for so many years, zero. Like they're. They don't. They barely exist right now. It's demos. But. But that's why we're year three. Yeah, yeah. Into an eight to ten year build out of the AI revolution. And I think those that are, that are getting embarrassed, they're going to miss what I believe is the next leg. Do you think the humanoid robots will find more traction in consumer. Like every person has one, it's doing their dishes, it's doing their laundry. Or are we going to not really see these things because they're going to be in factories first? Well, I think at first it's factories and that's what we're seeing with. I think that's going to be the first key cases. But then consumer, I think we look out three, four years, humanoid robots are going to be something that will become common. Everybody has a Roomba already. Look. Yeah, people are used to it. It goes back to like. If you go back over the last 10, 20 years, I could go through many incidents where everyone's like, Apple, why would you. Why do you need an iPhone when you have a BlackBerry? Yeah, yeah. Why? Why ultimately were you following apple in the 90s? Yeah. And I think that is. Do you remember what was it like? We were just reading about Larry Ellison yesterday. Yeah, he was thinking about that Larry, Apple at one point. Look, what was that like? It goes back to like. And I've followed Ellison from the beginning, going back to late night. It's like it's trying to explain to investors that these things now look easy and no brainers from Apple, Tesla. But at the point like when you look in 2007, okay. A year later, financial crisis happens. Investors are like, this is a one year at&t phone. Why would anyone leave their BlackBerry? Now you have $700 at a time when everything, I mean, you could kind of get it subsidized to maybe 400, but that was still like four times the price of most cell phones. And the view was that they were never gonna get to a hundred million iPhones and you're at 1.5 billion. But. But it goes back to. I could go through many times and test. I go 2022. Jensen, why are you spending money when it comes to AI? You're. You're essentially a GPU gaming company. Yeah. The point is we're going through one of those periods. Sure, sure, sure. But I think it's going to be proven to be the opportunity to own the tech winners. Palantir being one of those, how did you process Oracle's quarter? I think it was a huge step in the right direction for software because right now it's an AI ghost trade. Anthropic has obviously been a big part. AI ghost trade. Explain that term because you're fighting a ghost. Okay. When it comes to anthropic, we're going to get into cyber security. Look what happens to CrowdStrike, Palo Alto and others. We're going to gain the software. Look at Salesforce. Now it's a ghost trait because the reality is that the data, the stacks, the install base, that's who's going to be the use case. And that's why Palantir being one. But I'm a huge believer. Salesforce, ServiceNow and others, when you look, you're, you're a believer in those. I'm a huge believer that this is the most disconnected tech trade that I've seen in my career relative to the software. You call it a SaaS apocalypse, but I'd call it a ghost trade because you're fighting a ghost. Oracle first step in that direction toward fighting the ghost trade. And I think it speaks to like, look, Ellison, you know, covering going back to, you know, 25 years, that's someone that understands where they need to get to. Would you take out 50 billion of debt to get to 6 to 700 billion of market opportunity? That's what they're doing. I do the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The backlog's massive right now. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. Great to be here. Great to finally meet you. Stay warm out there. You're not quite dressed for it. Know how you do it. Well, thank you so much. We're going to take this headset off, pass it over to our next guest. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. We'll, we'll keep you quick, we'll keep it short, but thank you so much for joining. Good to see you again. Please throw on this headset and then introduce yourself and hopefully snow starts to melt your jacket. You really have a bunch. So please introduce yourself and company. Yeah, I'll do that. Before I do. Thanks for having me. Your headphone flips. Okay. This one, Flip it down there. Perfect. Okay. So thanks for having me and I'm hopefully going to be in the studio next time. Yeah, we'd love to have you. That'd be great. But no, I'm Eric Brock. I'm the chairman CEO of andas listed company. We're Defense and security.

And so I want to spend virtually no time explaining why it works and just showing you how it works. And then let's talk about how to make it work 10 times better for you. So put aside like Palantir's hiring plans and just talk to me about the American economy. Do we need more forward deployed engineers as like a society for where we're going? I think the thing that the forward deploy engineers embodies for us and why I always get a little bit stuck, talk to a lot of companies that are like, hey, we're thinking about the FTE model, does it make sense? Are we going to do it? And the place where I always get stuck is, well, if you're not building our company, I'm not sure you should do forward deployed engineers. I don't think it's intrinsically good or it's intrinsically bad. The reason we do forward deployed engineers is our core philosophy, the core business strategy is that we're going to build the technology so our customers win. And if that's your core thesis, then of course you need four deployed engineers. Because if you want to win, you have to be able to deliver and you have to be able to do it. And then you also need to figure out for our customers and we also have to win. We, we have to scale our capabilities, we have to be able to invest in R and D, so we have to be able to figure out how to synthesize those things back into scalable technologies that allow us to deliver for our customers more and more over time. That is a highly tasteful exercise of what gets synthesized, what gets productized. Frankly, I think if you didn't have Shyam, it would be impossible. I wouldn't do it that way. But the thing that I think forward deployed engineering does embody, which I would argue we need more of in society, is it's sort of the rejection of the financialization and managerialism that defines what you think a business can look like with software versus saying the point of software is to enable creation, it's to enable the end customer to work. And by the way, we've proven that you can do that and build a really scalable, profitable business at the same time. Yeah. Where do FD.

Explaining why it works and just showing you how it works and then let's talk about how to make it work 10 times better for you. So put aside like Palantir's hiring plans and just talk to me about the American economy. Do we need more forward deployed engineers as like a society for where we're going? I think the thing that the forward deploy engineers embodies for us and why I always get a little bit stuck, you know, talk to a lot of companies that are like, hey, we're thinking about the FTE model. Does it make sense? Are we going to do it? Sure. And the place where I always get stuck is, well, if you're not building our company, I'm not sure you should do forward deployed engineers. I don't think it's intrinsically good or it's intrinsically bad. The reason we do forward deployed engineers is our core philosophy, the core business strategy is that we're going to build the technology so our customers win. And if that's your, your core thesis, then of course you need four deployed engineers. Because if you want to win, you have to be able to deliver and you should be able to do it. And then you also need to figure out for our customers, and we also have to win. We have to scale our capabilities, we have to be able to invest in R and D. So we have to be able to figure out how to synthesize those things back into scalable technologies that allow us to deliver, deliver for our customers more and more over time. That is a highly tasteful exercise of what gets synthesized, what gets productized. Frankly, I think if you didn't have sham, it would be impossible. I wouldn't do it that way. But the thing that I think for deployment engineering does embody, which I would argue we need more of in society, is it's sort of the rejection of the financialization and managerialism that defines what you think a business can look like with software versus saying the point of software is to enable creation, it's to enable the end customer to work. And by the way, we've proven that you can do that and build a really scalable, profitable business at the same time. Yeah. Where do FDEs fit into.

Restrictions around the use of these products in a domestic context. Even though it's funny, people out there, every conspiracy theorist thinks yeah, it's insane. I'm the only one conspiracy theorists. You may hate this, but there's one person protecting your rights to be a conspiracy theorist that actually has a seat at the table and that person is me. You may not, you may not want to hear that truth, but it's, it is fucking true. And maybe do a little more reading before you pontificate on your absurd and obviously ill formed in many times stupid opinions. Okay, so because like you're attacking the person who's protecting you, idiot. It's like fucking so stupid. Do do use one of the bots to correct your opinion. It's like I'm being attacked online now. It's like Dr. Karp is anti progressive because of my whole life. I'm the only just telling you the truth. These things are going to take your job. Okay, so then but in the war fighting context and it's the primary justification for these problems.

So much for taking the time. Great to have you. Thanks out there. We will grab those headphones and talk to you soon. Jordy, would you rather have $10 million or access to chat GPT in 2012? This is such a funny question because it reminds me of the like, you know, $10 million or dinner with Jay Z. Dinner with Drake or something. Jay Z it is. Case. In this case, we were talking about this off air and if you had chat GPT 10 years ago, you. You could make hundreds of millions of dollars in so many silly ways, right? It'd be like, I'd be like same day essays for college students. You need an essay. You got something to do. Great, we got one. If you were the only person. Speech writing. Yeah. Crazy. No, And Ben was saying, you know, like, even. Even on the image and video side. Oh, yeah. It's like, I'll generate any asset that you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Commercials that, I mean, that would be crazy. People would be like, how did you do this in a day? Even, even just like, even if you don't have Codex, but you just have ChatGPT, you can probably, you can probably piece together so much software that then you could go sell as an actual company. There's a million different. Really, really funny because it sounds, it sounds like such a silly question, but then when you ask about the capability, it's remarkable. I would build a very, very thin wrapper. I mean, that's one. If you just, if you just actually go and sell this, like, futuristic technology, everyone will assume you're, you know, your time traveler. We're doing pretty well. We're doing pretty well. The snow is hitting my feet. The computer.

And you're out there and you're technical or just smart. Apply. We need you. Okay. America is a great country. Put aside Democrat. Put aside Republican. Is democracy the correct formulation to decide the future of AI? Should the American people be voting? Should that be handled by private companies? No. America. Well, it depends. Yeah. Great. So in the war fighting context, the Department of War has to be the arbiter of what gets deployed. But as a citizen, I vote for the Department of War. Exactly. Yeah. Okay, but, but I'm just saying. So I want to split domestic and foreign because like we in this country have God given rights literally given to us by a higher being. There's a right of free expression which we're exercising all the time and is very important to us. There's a second Amendment which I exercise, I shoot very well. I would encourage you guys and other people listening to avail yourself of the Second Amendment. Yes. It was not. It is there to protect ourselves in case the First Amendment fails. That's the reason it's there. There's a Fourth Amendment which is essentially we have a right to privacy. Okay. We have those rights. Adversaries trying to kill us in Iran do not have those rights. Sure. And I don't believe, I've never believed in extending our rights to foreign countries that are adversarial to us. I don't even really believe. I don't like, you know, Germany, where I lived half my life. They don't have a First Amendment. They don't believe it. And by the way, they've never believed in the First Amendment. They have other rights. That's great. I'm not going to dispute that. But I want our rights here in this country. If you're going to tell the American people you're building what is clearly a dangerous technology, it's dangerous because it will likely take your job, especially if you're white collar. So if you're voting, you know, you're highly educated. Have you flipped on that in the last like six months or so? Because I think, I think the last time we talked your general mindset was like high agency, highly productive people will be able to continue to leverage the tools to deliver value. Yeah, I think if you're neurodivergent and high agency and you're highly educated, that's great. But if you're not neurodivergent and you're like lawyer 14506 that's a problem. Okay, but let me get to this. And they're linked, but it's okay on domestic stuff. We have Rights that are not subject to majority rule. Like the majority can vote against us having fourth amendment rights. I want that litigated at the Supreme Court because we are not our, our constitution is not about majority. It's actually about the rights of the minority. And it's our right. I bet you the three of us have opinions that are very much in the minority that we want to be able to say at least in the privacy of our own home. Right. And so there are real issues. I'm super sympathetic with restrictions around the use of these products in a domestic context. Even though it's funny people out there, every conspiracy theorist thinks yeah it's just insane. I'm the only one Conspiracy theorists. You may hate this but there's one person protecting your rights to be a conspiracy theorist that actually has a seat at the table and that person is me. You may not, you may not want to hear that truth but it's, it is fucking true. And maybe do a little more reading before you pontificate on your absurd and obviously ill formed in many times stupid opinions. Okay, so cuz like you're attacking the person who's protecting you idiot. It's like fucking so stupid. Do do use one of the bots to correct your opinion. It's like I'm being attacked online now. It's like Dr. Karp is anti progressive because of my whole life I'm the only just telling you the truth. These things are going to take your job. Okay so then. But in the war fighting context and it's the primary justification for these products has to be. It's, it's. There are two relevant powers now, US and China. This is a have have not world. It's going to be either us or them basically deciding the world order because like these other countries and maybe India will get involved, maybe the Arab, non Arab Middle East. But currently on the trajectory we're on now, there are two places where these things are being developed and deployed. It's us or them. And I'm not particularly, you know, I'm not, I'm not out to hurt China. I'm just out to. I think we should win. I'm not trying to hurt them. And in that context you can't say we're not going to do X, Y and Z. I might give you examples. But like there are data sets that are publicly available in the US market that should, I don't think should be used against you and me in a lawful law enforcement context more than with the help of say AI agents and ontology. Yeah, but if you don't use it on the battlefield, obviously Iran's going to use them. You don't think they can go online and buy those products? And by the way, without going into somewhat classified data, those things are, in combination with other things, lethal. Like, a lot of people who want to hurt America on the battlefield end up dead because of our ability to aggregate and then figure out what's going on in the battlefield before they can figure out what we're doing. And so, like, I'm very much in favor of it for moral reasons, but I'm also in favor of it. I don't know how else you explain this to the American people. We're going to take your job, we're going to take away. You're going to eviscerate your ability to have money and power, but that we're not going to defend you on the battlefield. It just seems like, yeah, well, they're gonna, you know what's actually gonna happen? That nobody believes me in tech, but there's gonna be a movement in this country that gets very strong very quickly to nationalize these things. First it's gonna be take away all our money. The billionaires are evil. You may not have heard that. Super evil. And if you take away their money, it'll help poor people. Yes. That's really important to understand. Making rich people miserable is the only way to help poor people. That's obviously true. Say once you've learned that, the next thing you're gonna learn is we have to nationalize it. They're going to, they're going to quote you on that. Well, it's like they've quoted you on. Well, so, so, I mean, it sounds like you're, you're, you're closer to Dario on, you know, potentially 50% of early.

Really honest discussion about that. These are the places where you will likely have a job and. Yeah, help me. You know, it seems like we as a country will probably head down a more European path where it is becomes very, very difficult or near impossible to let people go. Do you think that's correct? Germany? Much harder to, to lay someone off. I mean, that does impact. I mean that does impact the growth of, of companies. But I think many Germans would argue that's probably. Yeah, you know, Germany's. I mean, I won't. I'll answer your question. Germany's interesting place. I did this thing in German where I basically told the truth, which you're not allowed to do in Germany. It's like, you know, it's kind of really bad situation and the economy sucks, the migration thing's a complete disaster and the energy situation compounds everything. And I got thousands of people literally saying, thank God someone told the truth. And there are a lot of people like you guys, young people building things that feel hampered and are correct to feel hampered. I think the American version, if we're not careful, is not going to be the German version. I think it's going to be hang the rich. I think it's going to be. Not protect everybody else. It's going to be like, look, this is too dangerous and we're going to hang the rich but not really help the poor. And in fairness to the German version, like, you know, German, like health insurance insurance, all that stuff, it works like I was, I was poor in Germany for like a decade and like I had, I had the best life on the planet. Like, it was like being poor in Germany is like being better than being rich here on some days. So basically, policies that lift the floor re education, trade,

Is we have to nationalize it. They're gonna, they're gonna quote you on that? Well, it's like they quoted you on. Well, so, So, I mean, it sounds like you're, you're, you're closer to Dario on, you know, potentially 50% of early stage white collar job loss. Like, you're, you're aware that there's a risk. At least everyone's aware you're aware of it. What do you see as the solution? Well, first we just have to. I mean. Well, I mean, the obvious thing is, okay, we can't have any migration here. Like, how are we going to create more jobs? Like, it's like, you have to what the problem, in fairness, not that people want to be in the business of being fair to policy leaders, but that we are dealing with technologies that will determine the policy decisions. So you can't just pretend they're not happening. Like, step one is like, we. It's going to be hard but possible to make this society work given that transforming it requires these technologies. Like, all. Like, I really like the people here. They're not here because they like me. Like, maybe they're here for my jokes. High quality in some cases, but it's like a long trip and we're here and I'm the only one who likes this weather is great weather. I brought it for you. It's. But they're here because they've seen their business being transformed. And this is happening in America more than it. So we have to win those battles, but the costs are going to be very high. And so, so you have to work back from. Okay, the costs are going to be very high. We can't put oil on the fire. It's like, you know, it's like, well, getting jobs for all Americans is going to be hard and people maybe who become Americans, but it's like you have to have different policies around migration. You have to different policies around how we train people. Like, currently, if you're a young kid in high school and you're neurodivergent, they're literally chaining into your chair and feeding you medication so you can have skills that are not valuable. Yeah. Like, it's so it's like. And then we'll probably over time have to have like a discussion of like, yeah, if you go into this career, you're not going to have a job. Like, a really honest discussion about that. These are the places where you will likely have a job. And yeah, help me. You know, it seems like we.

Have to provide. That's funny. Help me square this idea. You, you were, you were talking earlier today about people misunderstanding your business and what's it like to read about your business? Oh, I mean, first of all, it's, I mean the part I, I, I hate it, but then the part I love is, and it's like you are valuable. Your, your value is pretty directly con. Convergent with people's inability to understand what you're doing. Yeah, it's like all these technologies are potentially commodifying everything. Yeah. Okay. So if you are a business that is, you know, not services, not product, but both, but also works on tribal knowledge, on data, and every single business you make is individual. And so, yeah, that's a crazy valuable business in a lot of industries where if the broader business community doesn't understand your business, you might have a short report, but you'll have a way less competition because people aren't copying you. It's impossible to copy certain, like, and we, we neglect this like, you know, almost like you even see it culturally like luxury products dominated by the French, watches dominated by the Swiss, currently certain kinds of war fighting dominated by America. And it's like, it's, it's very hard for people to eviscerate these cultural advantages and, and our products augment that which makes it augments the differentiated specific over the generalizable. And that's where literally all the value is going to go. And it's going to be like a waterfall. And that's the problem with a lot of software companies. It's like product abct. But then when you read it, it's like one of the more depressing things that you guys probably confront. But it's like a huge market opportunity for you. It's like, where are the experts? Like, it's like, you know, it's like there's, it's like, you know, you, you hope and pray. Like, I'll tell you the funniest thing about my life now. And people internally know almost every day I'm like, wait a minute, I'm the adult in the room here. It's like everywhere I go, it's like, it's like, wait a minute. Like, it's like there, it's like, and it speaks. So it's surreal when you read about these things, but, and it's, it used to really frustrate me, but now I kind of just think, well, like, I can't believe we're still viewed as crazy. It's like everything we're doing is the only thing that's working. I mean like I don't want to like spend a lot of time on our baller essential essentially baller numbers from last year. But it's like, you know, clearly our shit works. Clearly nothing is working at that level. And you would think they would take like I don't know, ten minutes to think. Okay, well the thing I believed and I thought would work didn't work at all. This thing I thought was insane is, has like a rule of 127 when like no one like 40 is considered like and like, but they don't. And, and, and then, and I. Yeah, but it's sometimes frustrating honestly. And the hard part actually is I kind of view it as a feature. Internally we get these bright eyed kids. So it's so funny. I mean the one get the best people in the world but you know, just like I was probably at 21. They're very romantic. It's like, but why does the adult not understand this? It's like but, but, but the adult expert tells me it's like I don't know when you guys had to drop the shoe moment and you realized that like the adults are like, you know, on crack or something. Like it's okay. Yeah.

Of your time, you could be building something important and what else goes would be a part of the good outcome. Welling well, the, the most important part of a good outcome is we show our adversaries. You can't with us. And we're the best, we have the best military in the world. Hope I believe we're doing that right now. On the good outcome side, we, yeah, we go around and then on the commercial side, we go to all these high infrastructure, you know, hospitals, manufacturing all these things, complicated infrastructure. And we AI enhanced all of them so the products are legitimately the best in the world. And we rebuild manufacturing in this country. Like a big problem for us, including on the battlefield, is our manufacturing just is not up to where we have to be. And that, by the way, requires reskilling, scaling humans. And we're doing this all over the place. I mean, the guy writing a lot of the scripts for the target, these people, they're like high school college grads. The people building batteries and all these things using our products, these are high school college guys. There's a lot of opportunity there. But one of the things I told the Germans.

But we don't have to explain that to our clients, you know, so, so, so there's There was always this. Always Palantir consulting firm. Is it all just people? Is there any real software? I feel like that narrative went away. Oh, no, no. They couldn't invest in us because we were a service company. Exactly. And now. Now it's like, and now. But is. Is. Is actually having that service better in the future? No, it's not better. It's underrated. It's crucial. It's crucial, yeah. Like all these places that made fun of us. Yes. They're running around and trying to get fd. It's like. Yeah, it's not as easy as it sounds because you have to know how to manage it, where to put the person, how to extract value. And then you need all these products that augment the fda. What are those products? Ontology, Foundry, fd, AI, things that we've built. So the value of the business is not a monolithic code base that never changes. It is the people. It is the deployment, is the relationships. Is that how you're thinking about the business these days? Well, actually, the way I'm telling you, like when you walk around here, they only care. They don't care about any of that. What they care about is you transform my business in three months, it would have taken three years and that is. Would never have happened. That's what they care about. Now then there's a question of how do you do that? And that is a concatenate artistry. It's like select client, select where you would start, select ways in which innovate in ways they would not accept, Innovate in places they do not understand. You should innovate, learn to manage these. Very complex. By the way, it's not just culturally complex, it's tribal knowledge. And much of that tribal knowledge is in rules that they have to apply. Because there are all sorts of rules about manufacturing, hospitals, war rules that are applied that they're not saying they apply laws, like all sorts of regulatory things. On top of all that, all that has to happen very rapidly. So you would need. And like, without going into details, like, I'm in the middle of like every single one of these discussions, in almost every breakdown. It's like people do not understand how institutions work. They don't understand how the software would work. They don't have the LLM would work. They don't have the product that would actually work in that environment. And they still, at the end of the day, are not saying we're going to charge on value. Okay. How do institutions work? Why is it that.

This is like, that's a waste of your time. You could be building something important and what else goes would be a part of the good outcome. Well, the, the most important part of a good outcome is we show our adversaries. You can't with us. And we're the best, we have the best military in the world. Hope I believe we're doing that right now. On the good outcome side, we, yeah, we go around and then on the commercial side, we go to all these high infrastructure, we know hospitals, manufacturing, all these things, complicated infrastructure, and we AI enhanced all of them. So the products are legitimately the best in the world. And we rebuild manufacturing in this country. Like a big problem for us, including on the battlefield, is our manufacturing just is not up to where we have to be. And that by the way, requires reskilling, scaling humans. And we're doing this all over the place. I mean the guy writing a lot of the scripts for the target, these people, they're like high school college grads. The people building batteries and all these things using our products, these are high school college guys. There's a lot of opportunity there. But you know, one of the things I told the Germans and I would say to us is we, I was like, you know, Germany, you have to call it a crisis. We do need like this is a crisis.

Agitation of. You got to vote for one party or the other. And then the real problem we have in society is not your listeners or palantirs customers or our partners. It's like, well, what happens to everyone else? Are they going to lynch us? Because, like, that's the real problem. Like, these products, like, what we're building, like, our agents mean that, like, the most. I mean, the most powerful people in the Democratic Party are highly educated female voters. And these technologies, like, they love, they. I mean, like, I actually get along with all these people in private, and there's a public dispute, but, like, largely, I've talked to Dario over and over, and it's like, yeah, you love one company because they're not pro Trump. That company's taking your job. How are you going to feel about that company when you find out you have no job? What do you think the Republican Party is going to do to products that do not support our military? What do you think the Democratic Party is going to do to proxy, even if you're voting for them, that are taking away the jobs of every one of your constituents and saying, oh, people are going to love you so much and you're going to be poor, by the way, we love you so much, we're going to give you a little handout once a month. Yeah. Yeah. So apply that to the sass apocalypse narrative. The enterprise.

Would actually work in that environment. And they still, at the end of the day, are not saying we're going to charge on value. Okay, how do institutions work? Why is it that we get these genius models that are 160 IQ, they can solve incredible math and they're not just like everywhere all the time. What is slow? I mean, the simple version is they're 160 against a test, but the test isn't. It's a concatenation. The simple math would be it's 160 on one test. But you've got to pass differentiated tests over a long period of time. So it's a thousand tests. Yeah. So de facto, by the 50th step, it's 0 IQ. But then there's also. There's also. Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's, it's, it's insane. Like, no, I love when I hear about all this is going to replace and I go to our clients and they're like, could we have more? We don't even have the capacity. Like, it's like, it's a surreal thing. Like, would you guys like to be fts? Because we need some help. If you're in the audience completely, seriously. And you're aligned, broadly speaking, with America is a great country. You have to agree about anything else and you're out there and you're technical or just smart, apply. We need you. Okay. America is a great country.

Do is like be more of an artist, look at things from a different direction, be able to build something unique. And you see this on the battlefield. Like one of the most underappreciated things about fighting a war, which is the. I mean there are basic core things civilizations do, like build technology for war is every society fights differently, Every component of the society fights differently. And when like American as allies, we do not even approach these problems in the same way. What makes America lethal more so than any currently country is like a combination of obviously the technology which we're super interested in and believe are paying a huge part in, but it's like 20 years of operators figuring out what worked, not what worked in a manual, like what worked in reality. Also, even selection, if you look at the selection that people like you meet tier one operators, they. They don't look anything like what people would think. It's not like the movies, they're like this big. It's like because we vining. Yeah. We have specialized ways of doing that. All that is crazy valuable as a proxy indicator. People who are getting their news from you are just likely to massively.

And all these things using our products, these are high school college guys. There's a lot of opportunity there. But you know, one of the things I told the Germans and I would say to us is we, I was like, you know, Germany, you have to call it a crisis. We do need like this is a crisis moment America is tomorrow is not going to look like it looked at all or we're going to have radicalism on right or left. The problem, the danger is if we don't do these reforms, you are going to get the pitchforks. Because then the only solution people are going to have is well, you know, let's go after the unlikable rich people in tech, especially AI tech. And then, but then what can work is yeah, close the borders, keep them closed, start doing huge vocational efforts. Change how we test aptitude like so we have an accurate diagnostic of where you could be slotted, be ruthless and like, you know, it's like in certain. Find out new ways to test and do ruthless testing and slotting and, and then also go around to universities and just, I mean, you know how when you like you want to smoke a cigarette, it's like this, this cigarette may be harmful. You maybe we should be putting that in universities. This university, this, this university is harmful for your investor. You know, I'm libertarian. You want to go to university student debt may be harmful to your future financial and your personal life. Explain to someone you got a million dollars in debt, Million dollars in debt. I mean maybe if you're six nine and you, you can get away with that, but the rest of us have to provide. That's funny.

We love you so much. We're going to give you a little handout once a month. Yeah, yeah. So apply that to the SaaS apocalypse narrative, the enterprise SaaS. There's an idea that the first jobs that will be taken might be the enterprise. Software products that exist haven't really innovated, have locked in, and they're going to be replatformed. The thing that these technologies do is they also make it harder to lie about. This is part of the political problem. If something's not creating value or something's not working or there's corruption, you can't lie about it. And nobody believes that all software companies actually create value. I mean, the famous thing that we all learned was that we rejected that. You were learned and people taught you is like your software company is supposed to give the client a feeling they're getting laid while they're getting fucked. Yeah. Now, if that's how your products actually are, now it's, you are going to get fucked. And this is going to happen so quickly. And the simple test for people who are looking at this is, does this product, or in our case, we were never pure software. We're actually like a hybrid of, like humans, FDEs, augmented humans, so AI FDEs and then orchestration, and then essentially what we would call primitives, like taking the tribal knowledge of institution, coding it into logic, and then using that to be extended in lms. Okay, but we don't have to explain that to our clients. There was always this, always Palantir.

Education, training. So if you want to do what we could do here. Yeah, we. The things we could adopt from Germany are. Germany has three high schools. Yeah. Two are vocational. Sure. One is academic. Better education, better programmatic. Vocational, vocational. It also has a bad, like a weird vibe here. Like vocational training in Germany is very technical. Like the people building the cars at BMW or even in the French version, Airbus, like very complicated jobs. They didn't go to college, they went to a very, very high end high school and they come out without any debt. And that stuff is really valuable. Yeah. So if you want to, you have to completely transform our educational system and, and go very young into like training people to do things. You also need to change our testing system. Like different forms of intelligence are. All of our tests are built around things that were valuable in the industrial revolution. It's like you want to pull out all the dyslexics, all the neurodivergence, everybody who can't sit or needs to build or wants to build, have to go into separate slot of like, yeah, we should have gotten you before you got turned down at Coleman and like said, this is like, that's a waste of your time. You could be building something important and what else goes would be a part of the.

Sheet because most of the pull up bars I just stand on the floor. That's right. Yeah. I can hold forever. Forever. That's right. That's right. But, but when you're not dead, hanging. What should people be doing with the new coding agents? How important is it to learn to code? How important is it to. Look, there are two that everybody's worried about, like their future. But there are basically two ways to know you have a future. One, you have some vocational training. Okay, so it's like. Or two, you're neurodivergent. And when I say neurodivergent, I mean broadly defined. Like your guys are sitting here. You could have had a corporate tool job. Yeah, you could have been like, I don't want to pick on Goldman, but like just say, you know, like a job. I applied there, they turned me down. Well, yeah, you could add a job where you're like, yeah, no, actually maybe they didn't know the right way to test. Yeah, like it's like, yeah, they were like, like, you know, whatever. I'm not picking on one or the other. I'm just saying you, you, you know, you, the, like you are probably here, you think you're here because actually you probably wouldn't have been able to do that shit because there's like, it's the same thing as sit down in class and learn some bullshit like, and you just regurgitate it. Like that's not a valuable thing if you are actually have insights into anything and you have real technical expertise. Like, you know, you can look at a company but you actually can look at it because you know something about how these things work or something about how clients work. You know, then all the other stuff that used to be precious, like being able to do low end coding, being able to do low end lowering, being able to do low end reading and writing. I mean this is like, I feel like ODIN came down and was like, I'm gonna make the world just right for dyslexic. It's like, yeah, I've. ODIN has come down from. Or Lockheed has come down and said, you know what, Karp, you suffered so much as a kid. Yeah, I'm just gonna make the whole world so everyone else can suffer. I don't want that. It's like now, but it's really an inversion. Like everybody with like the normal shape skills are dyslexics because like the meaning, the thing they can do that used to be valuable is not so valuable. The thing that they need to learn to do is like be more of an artist, look at things from a different direction, be able to build something unique. And you see this on the battlefield, like,

Like, like 8 foot. Last time we talked to you, I think you were doing four minutes on the dead hang. What's it up to now? 5 5, 5, 5, 5. What about in the cold, though? That's. Sorry. We need to have a special minute for that 505. For those of you who haven't done a dead hang, first of all, go do it. Why is it important? Well, there. There are very few things that are proxy indicators that are accurate for health. It's like dead hang, farmers walk, body weight and V2 are the three ones that count. Okay. I don't think anyone really. One rep max bench press, that's all I focus on. Okay. Well, you know, it's like, I feel like as long as I have a really impressive bench press, I'll. I'll live a short but glorious life. Yeah. I don't know, did they say something about that? Yeah. Who wants to live a long, glorious life when you can live a glorious, short life? Yeah. I think that's what they tell you before they give you a bad salary. I think it's like, yeah, it's. Or it's like, yeah, my social life is so great. I only have a bot, but I enjoy it. Yeah. Kind of logic. No, but no, it's. Dead hang is important. Dead hang is crucial. Okay. And you really need to go work on it. Especially anyone watching your podcast. Yes. Is likely to outperform. Yeah. You want to have something, you know, you want to be able to do something with that outperformance. Like. Like. Yeah. Well, the dead hag may be a proxy indicator for other things you could do with your performance. Yes. You know, but, you know, not everyone is. Yeah. Not everyone is like six foot nine and like, you may not need a dead hag, but the rest of us. Well, I can cheat because most of the pull up bars I just stand on the floor. That's right. Yeah. And I can hold forever. Forever. That's right. That's right. But. But when you're not dead hanging, what should people be doing with the new coding agents? How important is it to learn to.

Forth with Emil, Michael. That's right. They're. They're trading blows about what does it mean to have a constitution? Should. Who should be. Who should write that? Who should give the models their personality? And, I mean, we'll talk more about this tomorrow, but Dwarkesh Patel has a great post summarizing a lot of his thoughts, working through all the different philosophies of when the government should be in charge, when different public companies should be in charge. Um, Dean Ball's main point is that, you know, maybe constitution wasn't the right term, or maybe it's a charge term or a loaded term that people read into. But Dean Ball's point is that there is no way to train an LLM that doesn't have a personality. Even if it's the most robotic personality, that's still a personality. Well, we are joined by Alex Karp. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for taking the time. With or without hat? Whatever's comfortable for you. You can do hat out here. Keep your hat on. I feel like this is an average day for you. You're always out skiing. We should have done that. Yeah, we need to get. We're close to getting skis. Look, we were supposed to do something physical. It's starting to stick. It's starting to stick. Oh, I like this. But now I feel like a newscaster. I feel. Yeah, this is good. You're, like, 8ft tall. People don't realize that he's not standing up because it would be like he's, like, counteracting for all of us. It's like. Like eight foot. Last time we talked to you, I think you were doing four minutes on the dead hang. What's it up to now? 5. 5. 5. What about in the cold, though? That's why we need to have a special minute for that 505. For those of you who haven't done a dead hang, first of all, go do it. Why is it important? Well, there. There are very few things that are proxy indicators that are accurate for health. Yeah, it's like dead hang, farmers walk, body weight, and VO2 are the three ones that count. Okay. I don't think anyone would like one rep max bench press. That's all I focus on. Okay. Well, you know, it's like, I feel like as long as I have a really impressive bench press, I'll. I'll live a short but glorious life. Yeah. I don't know. Did they say something about that? Yeah. Who wants to live a long, glorious life when you can live a glorious, short Life. Yeah, I think that's what they tell you before they give you a bad salary. I think it's like, yeah, it's. Or it's like, yeah, my social life is so great. I only have a bot, but I enjoy it. Yeah. It's a kind of logic. No, but no, it's. Dead hang is important. Dead hang is crucial. Okay. And you really need to go work on it. Especially anyone watching your podcast. Yes. Is likely to outperform. Yeah. You want to have something, you know, you want to be able to do something with that outperformance. Like dead hang. Like. Yeah. Well, the dead hang may be a proxy indicator for other things you could do with your outperformance. Yes. You know, but you know, not everyone is. Yeah, not everyone is like six foot nine and like, you may not need a dead hag, but the rest of us, well, I can cheat because most of the pull up bars I just stand on the floor. That's right. Yeah, I can hold forever. Forever. That's right. That's right. But, but when you're not dead hanging, what should people be doing with the new coding agents? How important is it to learn to code? How important is it to. Look, there are two everybody's worried about, like their future. But there are basically two ways to know you have a future. One, you have some vocational training. Okay, so it's like. Or two, you're neurodivergent. And, and I, when I say neurodivergent, I mean broadly defined. Like, you guys are sitting here. You could have had a corporate tool job. Yeah. You could have been like, I don't want to pick on Goldman, but like just say, you know, like a job. I applied there, they turned me down. Well, yeah, I did work at whatever. You could have a job where you're like, no, actually, maybe they didn't know the right way to test. Yeah, like, it's like, yeah, they were like, like, you know, whatever. I'm not picking on one or the other. I'm just saying, you know, you know, like you are probably here, you think you're here because da, da, da. But it's actually, you probably wouldn't have been able to do that shit because there's like, it's the same thing as sit down in class and learn some bullshit. Like, and you just regurgitate it. Like that's not a valuable thing if you are actually have insights into anything and you have real technical expertise. Like, you know, you can look at a company, but you actually can look at it because, you know, Something about how these things work or something about how clients work, you know, then all the other stuff that used to be precious, like being able to do low end coding, being able to do low end lowering, being able to do low end reading and writing. I mean this is like I feel like ODIN came down and is like, I'm gonna make the world just right for dyslexic. It's like, yeah, I've. ODIN has come down from our Lockheed has come down and said, you know what Karp, you suffered so much as a kid. Yeah, I'm just gonna make the whole world so everyone else can suffer. I don't want that. It's like now, but it's really an inversion. Like everybody with like the normal shape skills are dyslexics because like the meaning the thing they can do that used to be valuable is not so valuable. The thing that they need to learn to do is like be more of an artist, look at things from a different direction, be able to build something unique. And you see this on the battlefield. Like one of the most underappreciated things about fighting a war, which is the. I mean there are basic core things civilizations do, like build technology for war is every society fights differently, Every component of the society fights differently. And when like America and his allies, we do not even approach these problems in the same way. What makes America lethal more so than any currently country is like a combination of obviously the technology which we're super interested in and believe are paying a huge part in, but it's like 20 years of like operators figuring out what worked what, not what worked in a manual, like what worked in reality. Also even selection, if you look at the selection that people like you meet like tier one operators, they don't look anything like what people would think. It's not like the movies, they're like these like, like this big and like, you know, it's like because we have vining. Yeah we have, we have, we have specialized ways of doing that. All that is crazy valuable as a proxy indicator. People who are getting their news from you are just likely to massively outperform. People are getting their news from something that's a regurgitation of you got to vote for one party or the other. And then the real problem we have in society is not your listeners or Palantir's customers or our partners. It's like, well what happens to everyone else? Are they going to lynch us? Because that's the real problem. These products, what we're building, like our agents mean that like, the most. I mean, the most powerful people in the Democratic Party are highly educated female voters. And these technologies, like, they love. I mean, like, yeah, I actually get along with all these people in private, and there's a public dispute, but, like, largely, I've talked to Daria over and over, and it's like, yeah, you love one company because they're not pro Trump. That company's taking your job. How are you going to feel about that company when you find out you have no job? What do you think the Republican Party's gonna do to products that do not support our military? What do you think the Democratic Party's gonna do to proxy, even if you're voting for them, that are taking away the jobs of every one of your constituents and saying, oh, people are gonna love you so much and you're gonna be poor, by the way, we love you so much, we're gonna give you a little handout once a month. Yeah, yeah. So apply that to the saaspocalypse narrative, the enterprise SaaS. There's an idea that the first jobs that will be taken might be the enterprise software products that exist haven't really innovated, have locked in, and they're going to be replatformed. If you. The thing that these technologies do is they also make it harder to lie about. This is part of the political problem. If something's not creating value or something's not working or there's corruption, you can't lie about it. And nobody believes that all software companies actually create value. I mean, the famous thing that we all learned was that we rejected that. You were learned and people taught you is like your software company is supposed to give the client a feeling they're getting laid while they're getting fucked. Now, if that's how your products actually are, now, it's. You are going to get fucked. And this is going to happen so quickly. And the simple test for people who are looking at this is, does this product, or in our case, we were never pure software. We're actually like a hybrid of, like, humans, FDEs, augmented humans. So AI FDEs and then orchestration and then essentially what we would call primitives, like taking the tribal knowledge of institution, coding it into logic, and then using that to be extended in LLMs. Okay, but we don't have to explain that to our clients. So there was always this, oh, is Palantir consulting firm. Is it all just people? Is there any real software? I feel like that narrative went away. Oh, no, no. They couldn't invest in us because we Were a services company. Exactly. And now. Now it's like, and now. But is actually having that service better in the future? No, no, it's not better. It's crucial. Underrated. It. It's crucial. It's crucial. Like all these places that made fun of us, they're running around and trying to get FDEs. Of course, getting an FD is like. Yeah, it's like. Yeah. It's not as easy as it sounds because you have to know how to manage it, where to put the person, how to extract value. And then you need all these products that. That augment the fd. What are those products? Ontology, Foundry, fd. AI. Things that we've built. Yeah. What we being able to. So the value of the business is not a monolithic code base that never changes. It is the people. It is the deployment, is the relationships. Is that how you're thinking about the business these days? Well, actually, the way I'm telling you, like, when you walk around here, they only care. They don't care about any of that. What they care about is you transform my business in three months, it would have taken three years and ie would never have happened. That's what they care about. Now then there's a question of how do you do that? And that is a concatenate artistry. It's like select client, select where you would start. Select ways in which innovate in ways they would not accept, innovate in places they do not understand. You should innovate, Learn to manage these. Very complex. By the way, it's not just culturally complex, it's tribal knowledge. And much of that tribal knowledge is. Is in rules that they have to apply because there are all sorts of rules about manufacturing, hospitals, war rules that are applied that they're not saying. They apply laws, like all sorts of regulatory things on top of all that. All that has to happen very rapidly. So you would need. And like, without going into details, like, I'm in the middle of, like every single one of these discussions, in almost every breakdown. It's like people, people do not understand how institutions work. They don't understand how the software would work. They don't have the LLM would work. They don't have the product that would actually work in that environment. And they still, at the end of the day, are not saying, we're going to charge on value. Okay, how do institutions work? Why is it that we get these genius models that are 160 IQ, they can solve incredible math and they're not just like everywhere, all the time? What is slow down. I mean the simple version is they're 160 against a test. Yeah. But the test isn't. It's a concatenation. The simple math would be it's 160 on one test. But you've got to pass differentiated tests over a long period of time. So it's a thousand tests. Yeah. So de facto by the 50th step it's 0 IQ. But then there's also. There's also. Yeah, I mean it's like it's, it's, it's insane. Like no, I love when I hear about all this is going to replace and I go to our clients and they're like, could we have more? We don't even have the capacity. Like, it's like, it's a surreal thing. Like would you guys like to be FTEs? Because we need some help. If you're in the audience completely, seriously and you're aligned broadly speaking with America is a great country. You have to agree about anything else and you're out there and you're technical or just smart, apply. We need you. Okay. America is a great country. Put aside Democrat, put aside Republican. Is democracy the correct formulation to decide the future of AI? Should the American people be voting that be handled by private companies? No. America. Well, it depends. Yeah. Great. So in the war fighting context, the Department of War has to be the arbiter of what gets deployed. But as a citizen, I vote for the Department of War. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. But I'm just saying. So I want to split domestic and foreign because like we in this country have God given rights literally given to us by a higher being. There's a right of free expression which we're exercising all the time. And it's very important to us. There's a second amendment which I exercise. I shoot very well. I would encourage you guys and other people listening to avail yourself of the second Amendment. It was not. It is there to protect ourselves in case the first amendment fails. That's the reason it's there. There's a fourth Amendment which is essentially we have a right to privacy. Okay? We have those rights. Adversaries trying to kill us in Iran do not have those rights. And, and I don't believe, I've never believed in extending our rights to foreign countries that are adversarial to us. I don't even really believe, I don't like, you know, Germany, where I lived half my life. They don't have a first Amendment. They don't believe it. And by the way, they've Never believed in a First Amendment. They have other rights. That's great. I'm not going to dispute that. But I want our rights here in this country. If you're going to tell the American people you're building what is clearly a dangerous technology, it's dangerous because it, it will likely take your job, especially if you're white collar. So if you're voting, you know, you're highly educated. Have you flipped on that in the last like six months or so? Because I think, I think the last time we talked your general mindset was like, high agency, highly productive people will be able to continue to leverage the tools to deliver value as an organization. Yeah, I think if you're neurodivergent and high agency and you're highly educated, that's great. But if you're not neurodivergent and you're like lawyer 14506, that's a problem. Okay, but let me get to this. And they're linked, but it's okay. On domestic stuff, I, we have rights that are not subject to majority rule. Like the majority can vote against us having fourth Amendment rights. I want that, I want that litigated at the Supreme Court. Because I, we are not. Our Constitution is not about majority. It's actually about the rights of the minority. And it's our right. I bet you the three of us have opinions that are very much in the minority that we want to be able to say at least in the privacy of our own home. Right. And so there are real issues. I'm super sympathetic with restrictions around the use of these products in a domestic context. Even though it's funny, people out there, every conspiracy theorist thinks, yeah, it's insane. I'm the only one. Conspiracy theorists, you may hate this, but there's one person protecting your rights to be a conspiracy theorist that actually has a seat at the table and that person is me. You may not, you may not want to hear that truth, but it's, it is fucking true. And maybe do a little more reading before you pontificate on your absurd and obviously ill formed in many times stupid opinions. Okay, so because like you're attacking the person who's protecting you. Idiot. It's like fucking so stupid. Do, do use one of the bots to correct your opinion. It's like I'm being attacked online now. He's like, Dr. Karp is anti progressive because of my whole life. I'm just telling you the truth. These things are going to take your job. Okay, so then, but in the war fighting context and it's the primary justification for these products. Has to be, it's, it's. There are two relevant powers now, US and China. This is a have, have not world. It's going to be either us or them basically deciding the world order because like these other countries and maybe India will get involved, maybe the Arab, non Arab Middle East. But currently on the trajectory we're on now, there are two places where these things are being developed and deployed. It's us or them. And I'm not particularly, you know, I'm not, I'm not out to hurt China. I'm just out to, I think we should win. I'm not trying to hurt them. And in that context, you can't say we're not going to do X, Y and Z. I mean, I give you examples, but like there are data sets that are publicly available in the US market that should, I don't think, should be used against you and me in a lawful law enforcement context more than with the help of, say, AI agents and ontology. Yeah, but if you don't use it on the battlefield, obviously Iran is going to use them. You don't think they can go online and buy those products? Yeah, and by the way, without going into somewhat classified data, those things are in combination with other things, lethal. Like a lot of people who want to hurt America on the battlefield end up dead because of our ability to aggregate and then figure out what's going on in the battlefield before they can figure out what we're doing. And so I'm very much in favor of it for moral reasons, but I'm also in favor of it. I don't know how else you explain this to the American people. We're going to take your job, we're going to take away, you're going to eviscerate your ability to, to have money and power. But that we're not going to defend you on the battlefield just seems like, yeah, well, they're going to, you know what's actually going to happen that nobody believes me in tech, but there's going to be a movement in this country that gets very strong very quickly to nationalize these things. First it's going to be take away all our money. The billionaires are evil. You may not have heard that. Super evil. And if you take away their money, it'll help poor people. That's really important to understand. Making rich people miserable is the only way to help poor people. Yeah, that's obviously true. Say once you've learned that the next thing you're going to Learn is we have to nationalize it. They're going to, they're going to quote you on that? Well, it's like quoted you on. Well, so, so, I mean, it sounds like you're, you're closer to Dario on, you know, potentially 50% of early stage white collar job loss. Like, you're, you're aware that there's a risk. At least everyone's mobility. You're aware of it. What do you see as the solution? Well, first we just have to. I mean. Well, I mean, the obvious thing is, okay, we can't have any migration here. Like, how are we going to create more jobs? Like, it's like you have to what the problem, in fairness, not that people want to be in the business of being fair to policy leaders, but that we are dealing with technologies that will determine the policy decisions. So you can't just pretend they're not happening. Like, step one is like, we. It's going to be hard but possible to make this society work given that transforming it requires these technologies. Like, all. Like, I really like the people here. They're not here because they like me. Like, maybe they're here for my jokes. High quality in some cases, but it's like a long trip and we're here and I'm the only one who likes this weather is great weather. I brought it for you. It's. But they're here because they've seen their business being transformed and this is happening in America more than. So we have to win those battles, but the costs are going to be very high. And so you have to work back from. Okay, the costs are going to be very high. We can't put oil on the fire. It's like, you know, it's like, well, getting jobs for all Americans is going to be hard and people maybe who become Americans, but it's like you have to have different policies around migration. You have to different policies around how we train people. Like, currently, if you're a young kid in high school and you're neurodivergent, they're literally tracking, chaining you into your chair and feeding you medication so you can have skills that are not valuable. Yeah. Like, it's so it's like. And then we'll probably over time have to have like a discussion of like, yeah, if you go into this career, you're not going to have a job. Like a really honest discussion about that. These are the places where you will likely have a job. And yeah, help me. You know, it seems like we as a country will probably head down a More European path where it is becomes very, very difficult or near impossible to let people go. Do you think that's correct? Germany? It's much harder to lay someone off. I mean that does impact the growth of companies. But I think many Germans would argue that's probably. Yeah, you know, Germany's. I mean, I won't. I'll answer your question. Germany's an interesting place. I did this thing in German where I basically told the truth, which you're not allowed to do in Germany. It's like, you know, it's kind of really bad situation and the economy sucks, the migration thing's a complete disaster and the energy situation is like compounds everything. And I got thousands of people literally saying, thank God someone told the truth. And there are a lot of people like you guys, young people building things that feel hampered and are correct to feel hampered. And I think the American version, if we're not careful, is not going to be the German version. I think it's going to be hang the rich. I think it's going to be. Not protect everybody else. It's going to be like, look, this is too dangerous and we're going to hang the rich but not really help the poor. And in fairness to the German version, like you know German, like health insurance, insurance, all that stuff, it works. I was poor in Germany for like a decade and like I had the best life on the planet. Like it was like being poor in Germany is like being better than being rich here in some days. So basically policies that lift the floor re education, training. So if you want to do what we could do here. Yeah, we, the things we could adopt from Germany are. Germany has three high schools. Yeah. Two are vocational. Sure. One is academic. Better education, better programmatic, vocational, vocational. It also has a bad like a weird vibe here. Like vocational training in Germany is very technical. Like the people building the cars at BMW or even in the French version, Airbus, like very complicated jobs. They didn't go to college, they went to a very, very high end high school and they come out without any debt. And that stuff is really valuable. So if you want to, you have to completely transform our educational system and go very young into like training people to do things. You also need to change our testing system. Like different forms of intelligence are. All of our tests are built around things that were valuable in the industrial revolution. It's like you want to pull out all the dyslexics, all the neurodivergence, everybody who can't sit or needs to build or wants to build, have to go Into a separate slot of like, yeah, we should have gotten you before you got turned down at Coleman and like said, this is like, that's a waste of your time. You could be building something important and what else goes would be a part of the good outcome. Well, the, the most important part of a good outcome is we show our adversaries. You can't fuck with us. And we're the best. We have the best military in the world. Hope I believe we're doing that right now. On the good outcome side, we, yeah, we go around and then on the commercial side, we go to all these high infrastructure, you know, hospitals manufacturing all these things, complicated infrastructure, and we AI enhanced all of them. So the products are legitimately the best in the world. And we rebuild manufacturing in this country. Like a big problem for us, including on the battlefield, is our manufacturing just is not up to where we have to be. And that by the way, requires rescaling, scaling humans. And we're doing this all over the place. I mean the guy writing a lot of the scripts for the target, these people, they're like high school college grads. The people building batteries and all these things using our products, these are high school college guys. There's a lot of opportunity there. But you know, one of the things I told the Germans and I would say to us is we, I was like, you know, Germany, you have to call it a crisis. We do need like, this is a crisis moment. America is tomorrow is not going to look like it looked at all or we're going to have radicalism on right or left. The problem, the danger is if we don't do these reforms, you are going to get the pitchforks. Because then the only solution people are going to have is, well, you know, let's go after the unlikable rich people in tech, especially AI tech. And then, but, but then what can work is, yeah, close the borders, keep them closed, start doing huge vocational efforts, change how we test aptitude. Like so we have an accurate diagnostic of where you could be slotted. Be ruthless and like, you know, it's like in certain, find out new ways to test and do ruthless testing and slotting and then also go around to universities and just, I mean, you know how when you like, you want to smoke a cigarette, it's like this, this cigarette may be harmful. Maybe we should be putting that in universities. This university, this, this university is harmful for your investor. You know, I'm libertarian. You want to go to university, student debt may be harmful to your future and your personal life. Explain to Someone you got a million dollars in debt. Million dollars in debt. I mean, maybe if you're 6, 9 and you can get away with that, but the rest of us have to provide. That's funny. Help me square this idea. You, you were, you were talking earlier today about people misunderstanding your business and. Yeah. What's it like to read about your business? Oh, I mean, first of all, it's, I mean the part I, I hate it, but then the part I love is, and it's like you are valuable. Your, your value is pretty directly convergent with people's inability to understand what you're doing. Yeah, it's like, it's like all these technologies are potentially commodifying everything. Yeah. Okay. So if you are a business that is, you know, not services, not product, but both, but also works on tribal knowledge, on data and every single business you make is individual. And so, yeah, that's a crazy valuable business. True in a lot of industries where if the broader business community doesn't understand your business, you might have a short report, but you'll have a way less competition because people aren't copying you. They don't understand the playbook possible to copy certain like, like, and we, we neglect this like, you know, almost like you even see it culturally like luxury products dominated by the French, watches dominated by the Swiss. Currently certain kinds of war fighting dominated by America. Yeah, it's like it's, it's very hard for people to eviscerate these cultural advantages and our products augment that which makes it, you know, augments the differentiated specific over the generalizable. And that's where literally all the value is going to go. And it's going to be like a water fault. And that's the problem with a lot of software companies. It's like product abct. But then when you read it, it's like one of the more depressing things that you guys probably confront. But it's like a market, huge market opportunity for you. It's like, where are the experts? Like, it's like, you know, it's like there, it's like, you know, you, you hope and pray. Like I'll tell you the funniest thing about my life now. And people internally know almost every day I'm like, wait a minute, I'm the adult in the room here. It's like everywhere I go, it's like, it's like, wait a minute. I like, I. And it's like there it, it's like and, and it's big. So it's, it's Surreal when you read about these things. But. And it's, it used to really frustrate me, but now I kind of just think, well, like, I can't believe we're still viewed as crazy. It's like everything we're doing is the only thing that's where, I mean, like, I don't want to like spend a lot of time on our baller essential, essentially baller numbers from last year. But it's like, you know, clearly our shit works. Clearly nothing is working at that level. And you would think they would take like, I don't know, ten minutes to think. Okay, well the thing I believed and I thought would work didn't work at all. This thing I thought was insane is, has like a rule of 127 when like no one like 40 is considered like, and like, but they don't. And, and, and then, and I, yeah, but it's sometimes frustrating, honestly. And the hard part actually is I kind of view it as a feature internally. We get these bright eyed kids. So it's so funny. I mean, get the best people in the world, but you know, just like I was probably at 21. They're very romantic. It's like, but why does the adult not understand this? It's like, but, but, but the adult expert tells me it's like, I don't know when you guys had to drop the shoe moment and you realized that like the adults are like, you know, on crack or something. Like, it's okay. Yeah. Last question. Would you rather have $10 million or access to ChatGPT in 2012? It's a viral question that's going viral right now. I have to choose one or the other. I mean, okay, I'm just, I don't think he needs, I don't think he needs my social life in grad school. There we go. Okay, so that's on your. How about a new pick? We just have to ask, you know, it's like, great. I got to take something I valued. Oh, okay. Yeah. The most valuable thing for social life in grad school. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. It's fantastic. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah. And that's our show today, folks. Thank you so much for tuning in to TVPN today. We will be back in the TVPN Ultra Dome tomorrow at 11am Pacific. You want to sign off with us? Oh, yeah. Point of the camera. Goodbye. Have a good one. Cheers.