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Very interested to go all over the place. There's so many different topics we can talk about, but I would like to go deeper on, like how are you doing? What is the most significant story that you are following these days? Is it more geopolitical or are you starting to grapple with AI more? What is pulling your interest more? Well, I would say it's the sort of big story that we're looking at today is we're still living in the breakup of the kind of mid century model of democratic capitalism in the Western countries. A strong middle class with mass manufacturing as the kind of basis, mass consumption as the economic engine driving things along. There were a lot of bad things about it, but for a lot of, a lot of people it represented, well, in many ways the happiest condition the human race had ever been in. Yeah, kids were going to school, they weren't in coal mines. Parents weren't worried about, you know, job security, stuff like that. And people really figured, especially say 1990 or so when the Soviet Union fell. Hey, it's not, you know, this isn't just the end of history in some Hegelian ideological sense. The kind of society we built in the west, mass middle class society, democratic market capitalism with a social safety net. We finished, we've done it, we've figured it out. And then, you know, and not only we figured out domestically, we'd figured out how to do peace globally. You know, World War I, World War II, pretty shocking horrors. Fascism, Communism, ending with, for crying out loud, nuclear weapons. Right. People were, you know, humanity was having a great mental breakdown. And then it seemed in the 50s and 60s, we kind of, we figured it out, we stopped the wars, we had an alliance system that, that was keeping the peace we had. And ultimately we, we win the Soviet Union without a war. So without a, without a nuclear war. And so ever since then we've been bit by bit watching this thing kind of rot. Yeah. Much to everybody's surprise. And a lot of our political intellectual life today is a whodunit, you know, who murdered this beautiful, fantastic utopia. The left tells a story, the right tells a story. I might mention today, on October 7th, a lot of people tell the oldest conspiracy story of all, which was it was the Jews that died. Yeah. So we are, instead of celebrating the end of history, we're looking at the end of America, question mark. Or maybe with AI the end of life on earth or of humanity. That's what I'm thinking about. Yeah. How much simple stuff. Yeah. I mean when you, when you, I think I'M optimistic we can get to the bottom of it. We'll solve in the next 25 minutes. As you investigate a long historical arc, how much time do you spend focused on why questions? Peter Thiel has this concept of why questions are over determined people tell the stories like you mentioned with the left and the right versus maybe there is more value in just trying to understand what happened, who was involved, and less about why things happen. How have you grappled with that question of, like, how much of a narrative arc do we need versus how much do we just need to understand what actually happened throughout history? Well, you know, to think that you can understand a what without at least some element of why in there. You know, did the Roman Empire fall or was it pushed? You know, that's a why question and a what question. Yeah. Suppose you're right. What I try to do is to, you know, sort of. Well, let's take this very basic question. The materialists would say, you know, the philosophical materialists, that production determines everything. I'm kind of channeling Marx here a little bit so that, you know, the great music of the Beethoven era was essentially driven by the new pianos that were arriving on scene. Your idealists would say, okay, people had this idea about beautiful music that could be played which drove the invention of the pianos, on which then you played them. I don't know that you ha. That you can or should utterly feel that you have to resolve a philosophical question like that without being able to say something meaningful about where history is going or how we got here. So I think you've got to leave. You gotta leave yourself some space. But I don't think you can give up completely on trying to figure out, okay, is there some sort of meaningful pattern in all of this data that I've got lying around? No, I agree. You mentioned the 90s as a utopian era. I remember them similarly. I agree with that perception. But I've always been interested in understanding the logic of crowd. John was years old, one year old when. When the 90s started, I was 10 by the end. It was probably a pretty darn good decade. It was fantastic. The legos zero. Exactly. But I've always been fascinated by the folks that say, no, the turning point wasn't 9, 11. It wasn't in the 90s. It wasn't world World Trade Organization. It was actually in 1971. There's this website, WTF happened in 1971. And the crypto community for a long time was like, that's when we got off the gold standard. There's all these different rationales that point to 1971. How have you grappled with that question of, is 1971 actually the pivotal turning point in American history? Well, you know, you would then ask yourself, like, what made 19? What happened to make 1971? 1971? Maybe that's the turning point of history. Right. 1971 is just when all these trends became manifest. And in itself, that's sort of meaningless. Yeah. Because in fact, we'd been, you know, just to take the gold standard. We'd been slithering off the gold standard for a long time before we sort of stop the hypocritical pretense that there actually still was one. Yeah. And so I think there's. I would. I would have a hard time saying, okay, that was the year. The other thing is we're talking about a sort of massive array of processes. I think in some ways, the modern consumer society reminds me a little bit about certain types of crops exhaust the soil. So the first time you plant cotton on virgin soil, you get a fantastic crop. But after about 10 years, the plants start getting weaker and the yields drop. This is one reason in the slavery days, the south had to keep pushing for more land because it was exhausting the land, what they used. And in some ways, if you think about the sort of corrosion of social capital, the kind of decay of some of the elements that make our society work, we do look a little bit like a cotton field that has been farmed on a monocrop too long. And so that doesn't lead you to say, okay, there's one day or one event or one year that changed everything. It says, you know, we've been on this. We've been on a journey. And the direction of the journey is not in every way a positive thing. People like to talk about the vibe session that we're currently in where you can look at a lot of facts that point to society being better than it ever has been in many ways, and yet people certainly don't feel that way. I'm wondering if throughout the period that we've been talking, 70s, 80s, 90s, et cetera, there was ever that such a maybe disconnect between how people were feeling at the time. Like, were they. Was everyone feeling like we were living in this incredible utopia in the 90s where people walking around just being like, life is just so awesome, or was it the same set of circumstances where, you know, many people were sort of had had their frustrations? Well, you know, from about. From about mid-1965 or so, to early 1980s, there was actually a pretty bad patch. You know, it's when you get old, guys like me who grew up in that time, and we hear the zoomers saying, oh, this is terrible. We're going to be the first generation that doesn't live as well as our parents. We sort of think, oh, that's so cute, I want to pinch your little cheeks. That's just the way I was when I was a kid. Because the boomers were going to be the first post American generation. We had left behind all that stupid American ideology. The war in Vietnam, the civil rights movement. Oh, we saw through the American, you know, red, white and blue, blah, blah, blah. And also we were the least religious generation anybody had ever seen. And as we looked at our living, we came out of the college into the stagflation of the 1970s when we started wanting to buy houses in, like 1980, mortgage rates were 21%. 21%, okay. We were so screwed. That's how we felt. And, you know, and then of course, things kind of worked out. Not for everybody, but for a lot of us, it ended up working out okay. And so on the one hand, I think that makes people like me. We resonate emotionally with the way people are feeling their situation, but we also don't think the past was as utopian as some might say. And yet it did work out. I think it underlined optimism, but more this optimism pessimism thing. How are things going? I kind of think the Industrial Revolution, humanity's modern era is really short. It's just a flash of time, a few generations. And this idea that we understand it, we've mastered it, we are totally in control of the dynamics, I think is kind of ludicrous when you really think about it. But the Industrial revolution, human society is kind of like a caterpillar, you know, then you. Then there's a. It ends in these terrible storms of the mid 20th century. And then the caterpillar gets into a cocoon, which is what I sort of think of this mid century model of stable democratic capitalism. And what's happening now, all right, is the cocoon is starting to rot. And if we don't get out of the cocoon, we're going to be in terrible trouble. But, but the fundamental underlying thing is good, because if we can manage to claw our way out of this sticky, decaying mess, once very functional and necessary, but now just clogging everything, all right, then we have a new and better life, I think. So it seems to me that both the pessimistic vibe, the negative vibe of the decaying cocoon, and that the old realities aren't working for us anymore. And then the sense that, you know, wait a minute. There's a lot of really amazing things happening in this technology. There really is. There's the potential here to live far better than anyone has lived before. So I kind of see, that's how I reconcile the two sides of the psychological experience that people are talking about.

Electrification. We enjoy it every day. That's right. I think it was possible. We did it. We did it. We created more ad space. You saw this DIY device turns your car window into a digital billboard. They said it couldn't be done, but we did it. DIY system, it's called hollow glass and it turns your car into a moving display. Can turn almost any car window into a digital display for ads. This is the future. It allows you to basically digitize the exterior of your windows to share content on the go. Says the founder who I invited on the show. Hopefully we'll get him soon. You can literally pop it in, pop it out. We make them for all makes and models. If you're getting a Jaguar Type 01, get a couple of these in there, offset that cost. Run some ads. An app controls what you see from videos on your phone to a custom sign you can generate in seconds. The system can you just blast paw patrol out for. You can do whatever you want for the other citizens sitting in traffic. Yes, yes. Originally. This is extremely cyberpunk. If you're running this with the Nuvo Alari with the cybertruck with the Jaguar Type 01 and you're just blaring ads. Look at this. It attaches. It's just a full on projector. This company's hilarious. Cause that is just an off the shelf projector and they're just selling you a projector in a mount in the software system. It's brilliant, John. It's brilliant. Brilliant. We love it. I was getting worried that there weren't going to be that many more ad inventory services. We solved it. What does it cost? And then what kind of revenue can you generate if you opt in to serving ad? It starts at about $300. I feel like this will math out. It depends on maybe not in year one. The audience is what matters. So where are you driving this? Because if you're driving this around Sandhill Road and you're advertising a bunch of really high ticket items to venture capitalists, could be really high aov, really high arpu. But if you're driving it around some place where people don't have as much disposable income, you're not gonna be seeing the same CPMs. So where you drive the car really matters. It's gonna change. It's gonna change driving routes because you're gonna be like, what are you asking? Yes, you could take the freeway, but if I go through this neighborhood and drive all the way past every mansion in the Hollywood Hills, you will get more ad impressions, you'll make more money on the way to work. What do you think? How much do you think somebody in a city like L. A. Could make on a daily basis? I don't know. They give any $1. I have no idea. I think that. I think it probably costs a lot more than that to run, like one of those taxi ads on the top of a roof on a per day basis. So I think the math could actually be pretty compelling. Right. If you can pay, basically pay back the unit in six months and then from that point on, you're just getting paid to commute. I like it. I like it. One additional step to making the world more filled with ads. Yes. Yes. Let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI.

The Jaguar Type 01 was revealed 1000 horsepower. It is electric, but the design has evolved just a little bit from the original concept car. But Jalopnik likes it. They say, is everyone ready to be calm and normal about the new Jaguar yet? 400 mile range and even wilder than the concept. I think there's no arguing that the type against. There's. I think there's no arguing against The Jaguar Type 00 concept being the most talked about car of the past two years. Even as we've gotten closer and closer to the reveal of the production type 01. And it seemed like there couldn't possibly be any more discourse about it. I'm not here to add to that discourse because it's frankly exhausting. I just want to talk about the car, which I find to be extremely cool, regardless of whether or not it will actually be a success. Jaguar just revealed the Type 01. It does feel like a car that exists because the cybertruck exists. It feels like the cybertruck sort of not really ushered in a new era of brutalist, modern cyberpunk aesthetics. But it certainly shook some trees loose where designers were able to take more risks. At a time when cars were collapsing down to, you know, the Jaguar F Type and an Aston Martin and a, and a BMW, they all started looking pretty similar and they were just these form factors. A lot of that was for safety reasons, but a lot of it's just for logical what the market will buy. Everything winds up looking the same. And when the cybertruck came out, even though it wasn't like a blockbuster seller, I think it just let people know that it's worth taking some risk every once in a while in your portfolio. And so this the new Vollari, the cybertruck, that's the ideal, the new three car garage. That's the ideal three car garage. Type one new Volare cybertruck. You actually have all your bases. You are in the cyberpunk future if you have those three cars. The best part about this Jaguar Type 1 is that it's powered by Nvidia. Under its stunning design is Nvidia Hyperion, the computer and sensor platform that takes in everything the car sees and senses, then helps it make smarter decisions in real time. Paired with Nvidia Halos, a safety system that covers everything from the chips to the software before reaching the road. Type 1 software passed 150,000 tests over tens of thousands of hours. Is Jensen going to deliver self driving capabilities? You think that where that's where this is going? I certainly hope so, but yeah, everything I've seen has just. You basically need Jensen to step in and actually like fix. Yeah, like, please. Yeah, no, please fix this issue. I think you'll see a lot. This car, this car. I think it looks amazing. Again, it's, you know, I'm still trying to figure out who the buyer is. Is there more than, is There more than 5,000 buyers of this vehicle in the U.S. a lot of buyers. You'll, you'll see people with this car and they'll have the bumper sticker on the back. I bought this before elon completed his $40 billion debt raise to buy Nvidia GPUs which are in this car. I don't support Elon, but I do. I'm giving Nvidia a pass because that was an arm's length transaction. I just like the Jaguar brand. I think people will bring a lot of nuance of what's going on in the financial markets to their expression of this vehicle. Because if you're just driving this, people might think that you're okay with, with Elon's debt raise to buy Nvidia GPUs which are of course powering the Type O1. A lot of people will ask you, oh, I guess you're an Elon guy if you drive this. And you'll be like, no, no, no. I bought it before Apollo brought the two page memo to investment committee and approved the $40 billion debt raise and then securitized it. And the memo clearly said they were going to put the GPUs in space. No, it said somewhere in the universe, which could be in a car, could be space, could be anywhere, technically. One notable thing, the car is going to be coming in starting at 130,000 USD, which actually feels lower based on the sort of like Silhouette totally style. It feels like it's as bold as the Luce. It's as bold or it fits in. You could see the same person that would be going for a Continental gt or maybe they're older. Right? Yeah. Deciding to pick this up. This is interesting. So it's interesting. It's got to be able to drive itself. That's going to be my criticism for every daily. Every car in the daily driver category drives itself. Yeah. Drive yourself. Let me tell you about public investing investor.

It we're close to solving. A reporter was on the ground apparently inside a data center. They were asking one of the construction workers his thoughts on the current labor market. Let's pull this up. So when you hear data centers, what comes to mind? I'm working at Homer City building the new data center. People say it's only temporary. It's only when they're building it out Then what happens? Hey, every job in my field is temporary. That's true too. Okay, I hear you, man. So when you hear data. Yeah. The reporter's like, yeah, that's a good point actually. Yeah, People haven't really said that before. Like that's kind of a genius take. I don't know. I've never heard that. It's like, yeah, they're temporary but every construction job is temporary. That's the whole point. Funny. Anyway, what if instead of Greek life it was.

Cisco. If you're in Europe and you're building a data center, you gotta call Cisco. You also gotta procure a beautiful, beautiful building because take a look at this European data center. Amazing. This solves so much. This is so good, right? This is what we want. This would change so many things if we had a data center. If Abilene looked like Versailles, it's a completely different conversation. Jordy, do you disagree? I agree. I'm onto something, right? I agree. Give me credit here. Make. Build Versailles as a data center. Actually turn Versailles into a data center. Then copy paste it into every community in America. Okay, so I'm so confused because this image came out of a thread from the co founder of Mistral which he posted announcing Lechonk the new model yesterday. But then it's getting community noted. So I think he might have been. He was joking. Was he messing with people? Brutal. It seems like it's. It's a train station in France. He pranked us. Well, it will be a data center soon. I think the traction on this post shows you that people want beautiful data centers and this is the future. The other interesting thing. Have you heard of like an ice. That is such a good bit. I love that Mistral is leaning into the heckling that they have to go through from America. I think it's really smart and I'm rooting for them. Have you seen. I'll put this in the. Let me see. Put this in here. Iceberg houses. This is new for the mansion section. I don't know if this is real, but it certainly could be with enough civil engineering. Take a look at this. Tell me that this would not also not be a great data center design. Look at this. Zoom in a little bit. Okay, so you got the house up top. Looks like a normal building. You go underneath the. This one has a variety of. Of amenities. Bowling alley, arch, swimming pool, movie theater. Pingpong table. Yeah. Full deep underground garage. Pull up. The other one doubles as a. The other one's a little higher res. You can zoom in on this. This one's cool. Jordy, the. This one that if you. You could put a lot. That's p. A lot of CP. A lot of GPUs in there. I think you still. You vent it up just through the chimneys that you already got in the house. I think you're good to go. Ideally, they could put a wave pool in there. The sound people. A lot of people complain about the sound that would be underground, be diffused. I don't know. There's something here we're close. We're close to solving it. We're close to solving. A reporter was on the ground, apparently inside a data center. They were asking one of the.

Work. But it's all these. It's all these other human qualities that seem to be sticking around. Run says, do not let yourself be reduced to the status of an audience at a magic show. Uncomprehendingly clapping as machine intelligence creates parcels of astounding knowledge. All of this is for us to be understood by us, to sate our own curiosities. It's all really happening. Yeah. The good news here, the, you know, the internal model that was used. Why is he taking shots at being an audience member at a magic show? That's like my favorite kind of a low, low blow. I. I'm. I'm. I'm like the number one audience member at a magic show. I love magic shows, and I love being there, being like, wow, this is amazing. That's the best. That's the best. I don't need to be the guy being like, oh, I figured out the magic trick. I know how it works. I just want to sit there and be off. And that's my experience today. I'm just like, really impressive math guys. Awesome. But I don't need to. We did it. I'm good. No, it is a good message for a particular person. But I think if you didn't understand the first thing about the theorems that are trying to be disproved, you're not really going to be satisfied by trying to understand the proofs. You can just. There are some really funny ones, though. Somebody was making fun of, like, our CHUD universe is. What was that one you can do? Fourier transforms in o of n log n to the 0.99999999 time f. This CHUD universe, it's just like, it's the least elegant solution to the math problem. And somebody was arguing that, like, a lot of the previous work in math has been like, oh, try and find the elegant solution. And then the AI comes in and it's just like, there's an inelegant solution. And it just tells you a lot about both the mathematical discipline and, like, the nature of our universe that there are, like, these weird quirks. Anyway, where should we go next?

He's vibe coding, building apps. The apps need permissions. We've talked about this, the agentic era but yesterday there was a post that hit the timeline that was pretty crazy, a sort of truth nuke for the Adobe crowd. Someone decompiled basically every Adobe product. It's called artcraft getartcraft.com capable tools for artists and you can download for free all sorts of different tools that they have and they basically cloned what kind of tools? Photoshop Premiere Pro it feels like they can do a lot. I'm not exactly sure if they decompiled everything in the Adobe ecosystem but listed here is Photocraft which is clearly Photoshop Vectorcraft which is Adobe Illustrator Filmcraft which is Premiere Pro Lightcraft which is Lightroom Printcraft Effect Craft which looks like after effects and then design Craft which is I think indesign more crafts are on the way. And so it says all Adobe products re implemented from scratch, free and open source. And this is pretty, pretty crazy. There have been open source competitors to Photoshop for a long time. They've always lagged a lot. I downloaded the Photoshop decompilation, Photocraft used it a little bit. Not bad. Pretty remarkable how many tools did make it over. It actually doesn't have everything that you would expect. Some of the really cool features of modern Photoshop are actually AI and they run on the server. So if you want to patch a hole, you've always been able to fill it in with a full color. You've also been able to do content aware fill where it has a basic algorithm that looks at the colors of the pixels around the textures and tries to blend that in. But it can be a little, it's like pretty hallucinatory. And then recently Adobe launched AI fill. I forget what it's called, it's not content aware fill, it's some generative fill I think they call it generative fill and that of course runs on the server, usually uses nanobanana or they have a couple fine tuned models and that feature because it's server side doesn't work. So there's this interesting thing where like yeah, you're in the death of software, you can just decompile everything. But at the same time I probably want my software to run on the server, I want the server to be stable, I need services. So all the investments that software makers made in providing like inference heavy tooling actually sort of creates a little bit more of a moat. Obviously the moats are decreasing but there still is something where if I were doing heavy duty Photoshop use Photocraft would not be a perfect substitute for my workflow. For some people, they'll be like, yeah, this is actually perfect. But you've always been able to download an illegal copy of Photoshop, but this is less illegal. Maybe. It's unclear. It's unclear because it's probably. Has Adobe responded yet? I don't know. But it's going to be fun to watch the open source decompilation community duke it out with all the tech companies. Yeah. The interesting thing is there's been so many reasons to not buy Adobe for so long. Just given that historically I would think of an idea for even like a joke and I'd be thinking in my head, I wish I had. I wish I had the time to Photoshop this, or I wish I had somebody handy that could just Photoshop this. Now you just, you get there with a prompt. Yeah. Especially for these sort of like less professional, you know, use cases totally. Tools sort of stick around. If it's like you need to lock in and do like a full day of work. There's no substitute yet for, like, if you were going to be spending eight hours in After Effects or eight hours in Premiere Pro, you're probably not going to be able to replace that with a prompt. But if it's like, oh yeah, you want to just like, you know, composite two images together for a meme or add some text, a prompt is going to get you there. If it was, and it would have been 20 minutes of work in Photoshop, now it's 1 minute of work in ChatGPT or any other tool. And so obviously we're seeing these two spikes of intelligence right now. Anything that can be done in a purely virtual environment is accelerating extremely quickly. Anything that touches the real world or requires human data or requires this flywheel, that's much slower. And the OpenAI math results show a similar story. We can talk about that more later, but I'm sure more. Most people saw it. It's a pretty crazy result. What is the highest.

It's definitely changing a lot. I think you sort of have to start from scratch a little bit and be comfortable with non determinism and figure out how does product management work in an area of non determinism. And even within that, getting very comfortable with evals and how do we measure progress is something that's a really important skill. One thing that's really different is actually we're used to non determinism in text. Now we're entering non determinism in the interface itself. Like now it's not just the words are different, it's even the way it presents. The answers are super different. And so that's also actually going to start changing how we do product development at OpenAI. Because no longer can a designer build a weather card or a sports card and be like, this is how it's going to appear when it triggers. Because the model can just generate that on the fly. And so we're actually now also figuring out how do we do design in the age of non deterministic UI in ChatGPT. And we've actually had to build our own sort of design tools and development stack such that design can now work a lot closer with research on actually steering. Here's how we're going to teach better and better design to the model. And so to your point, like, product management is definitely changing and I think design is also now changing a lot. Where design is going to sit right next to research in shaping model outputs. Sure. Yeah. And that's such.

Well, you know, from about, from about mid-1965 or so to early 1980s, there was actually a pretty bad patch. You know, it's. It's when you get old, guys like me who grew up in that time, and we hear the Zoomer saying, oh, this is terrible. We're gonna be the first generation that doesn't live as well as our parents. We sort of think, oh, that's so cute, I want to pinch your little cheeks. That's just the way I was when I was a kid, because the boomers were going to be the first post American generation. We had left behind all that stupid American ideology. The war in Vietnam, the civil rights movement. Oh, we saw through the American, you know, red, white and blue, blah, blah, blah. And also we were the least religious generation anybody had ever seen. And as we looked at our living, we came out of the college into the stagflation of the 1970s. When we started wanting to buy houses in, like, 1980, mortgage rates were 21%. 21%, okay. We were so screwed. That's how we felt. And, you know, and then, of course, things kind of worked out. Not for everybody, but for a lot of us, it ended up working out okay. And so on the one hand, I think that makes people like me. We resonate emotionally with the way people are feeling their situation, but we also don't think the past was as utopian as some might say. And yet it did work out. I think it underlined optimism, but more, you know, this optimism, pessimism thing. How are things going? I kind of think the Industrial Revolution, humanity's modern era, is really short. It's just a flash of time, a few generations. And this idea that we understand it, we've mastered it, we are totally in control of the dynamics, I think is kind of ludicrous when you really think about it. But I think industrial revolution, human society is kind of like a caterpillar. You know, then you. Then there's a. It ends in these terrible storms of the mid 20th century. And then the caterpillar gets into a cocoon, which is what I sort of think of this mid century model of stable democratic capitalism. And what's happening now, all right, is the cocoon is starting to rotate. And if we don't get out of the cocoon, we're going to be in terrible trouble. But the fundamental underlying thing is good, because if we can manage to claw our way out of this sticky, decaying mess, once very functional and necessary, but now just clogging everything, all right, then we have a new and better life, I think. So it seems to me that both the pessimistic vibe, the negative vibe of the decaying cocoon, and that the old realities aren't working for us anymore, and then the sense that, you know, wait a minute, there's a lot of really amazing things happening in this technology. There really is. There's the potential here to live far better than anyone has lived before. So I kind of see, that's how I reconcile the two sides of the psychological experience that people are talking about.