NEWSMAX

Maybe I'm going to do that. Imagine if you're just sitting there next to Joe Rogan and you look over and Rogan's there. That'd be great. It'd be a wild experience. Much like getting your company on Vanta. Automate compliance. Manage risk, prove trust continuously. Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work. That's so wild. How could it be this easy to be compliant? Yes, Mike Isaac. The timeline this morning with a massive story. Yes, Mike Isaac.

Basically all the products were kind of bad and we were traders and we felt like we could make it better. And basically the sort of impetus for going all in and building hyperlucid was when FTX collapsed. It felt like suddenly the previously very academic concerns in crypto around decentralization and self custody it felt like people wrote about it but didn't really care and all of a sudden it was very viscerally important. It's like not your keys, not your coins and we had strayed very far from the original ethos of satoshi and bitcoin and so yeah we thought the world was ready to really trade crypto in the way it's meant to be which is like peer to peer in a self custodial decentralized place. And so I guess fast forward to this day Hyper Liquid is the primary on chain venue for price discovery. It's, it's a fully on chain financial system and so our kind of motto always is we want to build something that can ultimately house all finance and so happy to go into that.

Transaction, including all the orders. So this kind of like base layer of like just like what it is, I think is kind of lost because people are so. They're focused on the product, basically, which. Which maybe is good. Maybe it's nice that the tech is abstracted from users. Do you miss the Bay? I miss some things about it, yeah. What do you miss? What do I miss? I miss Chick Fil? A. Let's go. That's a great one. That's a great answer. That's a great answer. I miss mountains, actually. I mean, that's not like literally in the bay, but like, Singapore is very flat, so it's a very nice place. It's a great place to build, but I miss kind of like Yosemite and that kind of vibe. You know, Pacific Northwest. When I was in Singapore, a lot of people I interacted with said that Singapore doesn't have, like a strong local.

Things they do. And so we think that's very important. We have a bunch of investments there. Yeah, prediction markets. Great to see them break out. Now as you said, they've been. The idea goes back. I wrote a tweet, tweet about it about back to Hayek in the, in the 50s and you know, DARPA started a pre market, believe it or not, the government in 2021, I believe, sorry, 2001, something like that. Was that just like, you know, just for in like intel purposes? Like yeah, they wanted to predict like is there going to be a war in Iraq? And then they thought, okay, like it' a little bit distasteful that people are betting on it, but the societal benefits would outweigh it. But then there was such controversy around it that they canceled it. There are now rules as there should be around so called harmful prediction markets and you can't have those. But the kind of the core argument for prediction markets is that yes, there's sometimes on the one hand it's sort of gambling and betting. On the other hand it has a real benefit. As we saw, for example, in the election you can get really objective data and in a time in which trust in institutions seems to be dropping, like do you trust the newspaper anymore? It's nice to have an objective source for that. But back to your question. I think privacy is very interesting. I think I'm very excited by sort of the intersection of.

Really excited about that strategy. Perfect. Well, thank you. What's your. What do you think is your most underrated portfolio company? Oh, that's a good. Now I have to pick a fit. Like a. You basically have to pick a favorite. No, no, but there's companies. There's companies that. Some of my favorite acquisitions are companies that, like, haven't been in the news for five years, and they just get acquired for, like, $800 million. And you're like, we have one of those, which is really cool, called ID Me, which. He was on your company. I know him. Yeah, he. Was on Invest like the best after, like, 12 years. It's the craziest origin story. So that's like a evergreen version of that. And then one day they'll. They'll. Like, when sort of more modern version. What Rogo's building, I think, is not getting enough attention there. I think Gabe came on if he didn't one day. Yeah. Blake hall, founder and CEO of ID ID Me. I was at a conference, and he had a whole deck about, like, the business, and he just ripped it up, threw it out, like, minutes before and just told his life story and was just like, this is the best conversation ever. Because he had, like, military saved lives. It was a crazy. Just like, you know, this is like elite business leadership. I have so much respect for him. Do you? I feel like in some ways it's harder. Harder to predict the future.

Models that are not perfectly horizontal I think are probably still on the table. Is there a new mafia emerging? I mean, we've lived through the PayPal mafia. There was a bunch of entrepreneurs. Sponsored by the Mafia. Right. So my main goal with our new funds, I counted only four of your sponsors we've invested in. So ramp, Privy, bezel and graphite. I would like to get. The full lineup. Yeah. So we're going to take our money, we're going to give it to companies, they're going to give it to you. Yes. And that's. We call it the new circular economy. We tried to fund the circular economy. Circular economy. Our audience will buy the SaaS. Yes. To run their businesses. I think we just described. Our LPs. Were really excited about that strategy. Perfect. Well, thank you. What's your. What do you think is your most underrated portfolio company.

Yeah. Initially it was remote when we found that it doesn't work super well with our work style. Last question. Are people that brag about doing 996soft? Well, this is the, like, nine to nine, six days a week thing. Yeah, yeah. Because I imagine you're doing quite a bit more than that. So that feels like part of the criteria is, like, somebody comes in, they're like, jeff, I. Like, I'm your guy. I'm. I'm nine, nine, six. And you're like, sorry, like, that's not. We don't do half days here. Yeah. I mean, it's. I do think it's. The quality of work's the most important thing. So I think different people, you know, burn out at different points, and that's, you know, obviously the most important. Like, I personally work more than that, but it's because I feel like I don't really have a cap, like, personally, but everyone's different. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the. Really enjoyed this. Thank you for fantastic sharing the origin.

3 I think is unlocking a lot of this. So basically it lets anyone kind of come and deploy their own. What do you think is most misunderstood about hyperliquid today? Oh man, there's so many things most misunderstood. One thing I would say is that it's. Well it is a network. I think people think it's like a perps exchange. Some people think it's like a centralized thing. It's really not. It's a blockchain. The validator says permissionless. They're currently 24 validators. It's anyone can spin one up. It's like top 24 by stake. The validator set. Every validator executes every transaction including all the orders. So this kind of base layer of just what it is I think is kind of lost because people are so they're focused on the product basically which maybe is good. Maybe it's nice that the tech is abstracted from users. Do you miss the bay? I miss some things about it.

Finance and things like that, I think are, like, really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Why do some centralized exchanges say that hype doesn't want to get listed? Do they say that? I don't know. I don't know. I don't think we don't have a want here. I think it's like we're building. We're building. I think the, you know, exchanges, several exchanges have listed hype, and I think it's cool. And other ones, you know, for other exchanges, it doesn't align with their priorities, and I think that's also cool. Yeah, we're not, we're very like, we just like, don't really talk to these institutions. Any plans to enable multi asset margin natively.

When will they capitulate? One year. Okay, okay, we'll track it. Any specific views on the market structure bill in the US and under what circumstances would you bring hyper liquid onshore? That's a good question. So we think the US Is a super important market. Obviously it's like the financial center of the world and the dollar is the reserve currency capital of capital. Yeah, yeah. I mean we're nothing more than love. Love. Nothing more than to sort of like have regulation in the US Sort of evolve to. To sort of really embrace defi. And I think strides are being made in that direction. I can't comment on the bill specifically just because I feel like I'm a little ignorant on it. It's. I feel like it's changing a lot. And honestly, like, I think they're really smart people working on it. And the things I've heard such as like, you know, carve outs for decentralized finance and things like that I think are like really cool. Yeah, yeah. Why do some centralized exchanges say that hype doesn't want to get listed?

More than 20 years. About time the tech stack gets updated. And I think Defi is kind of that tech stack. Okay, I have a lightning round for you. Asked a bunch of crypto native friends what they wanted to ask you, so I'll go through a bunch of them and hopefully you can answer quickly since some of them are pretty specific. When do you expect to see the first centralized exchange? Shut down their perp Dex and simply run a front end on top of hype through hip three? When will they. When will they capitulate? One year. Okay. Okay, we'll track it. Any specific views on the market structure, Bill?

Bit stressful sometimes, but also it kind of detracts from the big picture, which is like we're still so far away from where we, we need to be. Yeah. How big can hyper liquid get? Like, what's your ambition? I think of it as, in the good case, basically finance as a whole. Which when I say finance, like, I mean like the coordination of human behavior. That'S massive. It's not, it's not like, it's not like you're. Like, you're basically saying like if, if I don't assume, you know, 100% of the global tam of finance, I will have failed. That's amazing. Well, no, I mean, you asked how big it could get. Yeah, I'm just playing. I like it. It's true. Yeah, yeah, but. But I don't think it's like an. It's coming in and kind of like displacing finance. It's really like my mind is sort of like the Internet did to find sort of like, like electronic trading happened in early 2000s. It's been like more than 20 years. About time the tech stack gets updated and I think Defi is kind of that tech stack. Okay, I have a lightning round for you. Asked a bunch of crypto native friends.

Create. Creating crazy asics and like. Yeah, that makes sense. How important is brand to hyperliquid success? Because I think you have, I don't know that you've, you haven't necessarily focused on brand in the traditional sense of like hiring advertising agencies and you know, putting together strategy decks and things like that that I'm sure many of your competitors. There's no arena yet, but you have one of the most powerful brands in the world, which is like, when you think of the value of anyone on earth being able to just type hyperliquid and hit post and get this massive influx of excitement and attention, it's truly remarkable. But I'm curious how much that's contributed to your success versus scale and some of these other product decisions. Yeah, I think the brand. We're very fortunate that the community is so, I don't know many adjectives like so, so strong, so like tight knit. So, you know, combative at times. But like, just like, like I think, I think it's very inspiring for us because we, we as a team are pretty introverted. We're super small, we're only 11 people and we don't have, we don't have. We have no one working on marketing and I think we, even if we did, we would suck at it. So it's always been the product is the marketing. Yeah, it's not just the product. It's the product in the community, I would say in the ecosystem. And so it kind of. There's. There. There are like many pockets, right? There are people who are just like on Twitter, like, like you said, kind of like shit posting. And I think that's like super cool. And you know, I, I love it. And there are also people just like, you know, building on the platform. I think that's another form of like viral marketing, right? Like they build products on top of the, the protocol that synergize with what it is or offer something new or like expl. Extended in some ways. And those are sort of like pillars of finance on hyperliquid are by and large built by community members. And we hope that that trend continues. Like anything that can be built by the community are built by the community. And I think that just like, yeah, that kind of decentralized marketing, sort of embodying decentralization, not just at the technical layer, but also at the social layer, I think is really important to us. And I think that's kind of the brand that hyperliquid has. It's like, you know, framed negatively. You could say that it's kind of standoffish, and maybe we're kind of where we're too focused on tech and not focused on marketing. But in this case, I think what comes out of it is like something much stronger, which is that people feel ownership in the network in a way that's not possible with the Web2Company. Yeah. Is that part of why, you know, the companies that want to eat your lunch?

Who want options or who want traditional futures. But perps by and large are attractive. Yeah. What are the biggest bottlenecks to scaling a network like this is certainly not talent because you've reached insane scale. I'm more thinking about like, are the tokenomics such that there are people that are setting up whole data centers? Are there ASICs being built right now to run the network? Like I'm familiar with kind of the how bitcoin went where people were mining it on their laptop and then it turned into a data center and then it turned like hunt for the cheapest energy possible with the ASIC because the algorithm was so stable. What does it actually take to scale a network like this over time? And where are you in that scaling curve? So bitcoin is a bit unique in that I think it's the only major network left that does proof of work. So ASIC stuff you're mentioning, like all the crazy things like volcanoes, mining bitcoins and stuff like, that's all really just participating in the consensus mechanism. All the other high performance blockchains today that I know of at least are power proof of stake, which is a much more energy efficient way to do things. And it's economic security, not like computational security. So on hyper liquid there's not much innovation being done on how the network stays secure. It's the, it's a relatively solved problem economically, which is that basically people, people put up the native token. Like it's very important for the network to have its own token, which on hyper liquid is called hype. And people put it up and they basically say I'm like vouching for the. Usually it's kind of like delegated. It's kind of like, you know, you vote for your congressman kind of thing. So it's like you delegate it to a validator and the validator says anything I do, the stake that is staked to me is at risk. And you can do some math. And then basically the economics work out such that if most of the stake in the network is honest, then it's fine. And if you want to acquire enough stake to do something bad on the network, where bad here is the canonical bad. Thing you can do is spend the same dollar twice. It's called double spending, which is basically forking the truth state of the network. You need to acquire a lot of stake to do that. So it's economically invisible. So the security is in the economics, not in creating crazy asics and bulk. That makes sense. How important is brand to hyperliquid success?

And then you can now create a book and basically get ready to Write Boolean before 2021 in every search bar forever. Yeah, I actually the same way I bought a domain named me Human. And I never launched it, but it was one of those things where I thought to myself, okay, I'm going to create a field that doesn't allow you to paste into it, it watches your keystrokes, it verifies proof of human, and it's just for sending thoughtful letters to other people. And it would put a little stamp at the bottom, letting you know that you actually typed this whole thing out versus just running it through an AI. To get something meaningful. Have you seen the crisis in wedding speeches now where every wedding.

Are attractive. Yeah. What are the biggest bottlenecks to scaling a network like this? Certainly not talent, because you've reached insane scale. I'm more thinking about like, are the tokenomics such that there are people that are setting up whole data centers? Are there ASICs being built right now to run the network? Like I'm familiar with kind of the how bitcoin went, where people were just mining it on their laptop and then it turned into a data center and then it turned like hunt for cheapest energy possible with the ASIC because the algorithm was so stable. Like what. What does it actually take to scale a network like this over time? And where are you in that scaling curve? So bitcoin's a bit unique in that I think it's the only major network left that does proof of work. So ASIC stuff you're mentioning, you know, like all the crazy things like volcanoes, mining bitcoins and stuff like, that's all really just participating in the consensus mechanism. All the other high performance blockchains today that I know of at least are power proof of stake, which is a much more energy efficient way to do things. And it's economic security, not like computational.

That we just kind of like never do. Oh, yeah, that's funny. You've mentioned it a few times. But can we just get like a firm backstory definition on perps for our audience? Why, what are they? Why are they so exciting? Yeah, let's see. So for. For someone who really has no finance, you want to like a sort of variable, like from zero explanation. Yeah, yeah, that'd be great. Okay, so if you think about what is traded today by people that are kind of like, you can trade the thing itself, which is like an Amazon stock, right? Yeah. If you want some sort of like, leverage, which is to say, like, make more bang for your buck, then the two ways people go about doing it is one, they trade futures, which are. These are traded mostly at indices. So the, like The S&P 500 and these things basically say, like, two people put up cash and they just agree to pay. Kind of like, they kind of like a long and a short kind of create a contract. And then if moves by $1, then the long side, say, makes $20 and the short side loses $20. That's a future. And then they're often also settled in some underlying thing. So it's like we're trading on what the price of S and P is three months from now or three months from now. Like, you'll deliver one cow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think of it as like the C bot. Like, if I'm trading corn futures and I let the contract run out, like, at some point I have to actually take delivery of all the corn. But most of the Wall street traders have figured out, like, to never do that. But you hear about these weird scenarios where it's like, oh, the price of oil was negative, so someone bought it for negative money and then like, wound up having to get all this oil and stuff. But. But obviously in a purely financial context, that's not the outcome. But has this just unlocked higher frequency trading, more leverage, A different shape of trader, something more quantitative, something more algorithmic driven. Like, who are the customers or who are the traders and why are they excited about the product? Yeah, so they're excited because. So basically, like you said, futures kind of sucked because of all these. Yeah, random thing. They kind of settle. Sometimes you don't want to get delivery. They're like all these weird things. You have to, like, keep rolling your position if you want it open. So like, if you look at Robinhood, for example, like, that's actually much more popular with retail users than futures are. And they, they, they primarily trade options on Robinhood when you know when leverage is concerned. And options are super cool because it's kind of like a lottery ticket. You can like as retail, you can buy a lottery ticket and feel really good about it. You're downsize limited. But the trade off there is. It's actually really hard to price an option, especially if you're retail and especially if you're using an app that doesn't give you the information that you need. And so you're kind of getting fleeced because there's very complicated structures. It sounds simple, it's like a strike price expiry. But in practice it's very hard to price. And so herbs are basically like marrying these two assets into one thing. So you want to trade something, you want to trade something that's just like the price of the underlying. You want there to be leverage and you want there to be like one thing that never expires. And that's what a perp is. Got it. So lets all the liquidity in the world concentrate on one asset. So like if you want to, if like you look at Bitcoin for example, on any one exchange there's like usually one very liquid Bitcoin per and that's the liquid asset forever never expires. And like that's where the price discovery happens. Like billions and billions of dollars will trade on these Bitcoin and this actually leads to the underlying instrument. And it's useful for professionals because they can trade it. And it's the most liquid instrument there is on Bitcoin. It's useful for retail because it's a clearly understandable price that you cannot get screwed over on because there's only one market and it's extremely liquid. So like buy or sell, like the spread is tiny and so it's kind of like a win win for, for many, many participants. There are, there'll always be participants who want options or who want traditional food features. But perps by and large are attractive. Yeah. What are the biggest bottlenecks to scaling a network like this?

It's obvious that they would go to Google and try to work out a significant deal there. I saw a very viral post earlier too saying that somebody was saying that if they started running, if they were in charge of Apple today, the first thing they would do is buy Anthropic. Yeah, very kind of weird take in my view because Anthropic hasn't proven that they can dominate in consumer. Right. Like Apple is a consumer product company. Anthropic generates tokens to create software with, to create code. And so that feels like very unlikely and kind of Apple I don't think is sitting there being like, you know, we always wanted to get into dev tools, you know. Sure. No, that's a good take. Yeah, I mean they do seem sort of like brand and spiritually aligned. I think the brands are good. What do you think? Yeah, I was just gonna say that I think most of the reason you see people talk about like oh, Anthropic and Apple, like seems like a perfect fit is mostly just because of like the general branding. It's very privacy focused, safety focus. It's not the move fast and break things culture. It's not aggressive culture as much. But yeah, I agree with the business models being wildly different. How are you feeling about just the general narrative that like Apple has not missed AI and in fact we're all stuck to our iPhones upgrading them every, every week and, or every year and they will continue to capture value eventually. And while you're thinking about that, let me tell you about Julius. What analysis do you want to run? Chat with your data and get expert level insights in seconds? The AI data analyst that works for you. So do you think that Apple needs to hire or aqua hire like more product designers, people that can figure out new ways to roll out AI features or do they actually need a deeper partnership with a foundation lab? Are they lacking in intelligence and token generation? I, I think Apple's just fine. Yeah, I see zero meaningful threats today. Can I have this interesting take that there's like this war going.

There's still stuff there, but then at the same time on the opposite end you have the algorithmic feeds, the TikTok, the Soras. And so how are you processing that? Is it a barbell or are we on some like straight curve to the end times? I believe that with the AI quote unquote sloth. Yeah. Over the next couple of years, pretty much social media is going to be dead. Yeah. I think a lot of it will be agents in there acting like they're your best friend and just you won't know what to trust. And so if that's the case, it's actually very freeing because you get into a world where, okay, I don't trust any of this mainstream, everything is public. Let me find an intimate space to hang out and have real conversations again. And so I like this idea. Some of the functionality that Alexis, the co founder of Reddit and myself are kind of working on, the dig stuff that we're just brainstorming is what if you met someone in real life and you pull out your phone and the connection that happens actually shows that it was geo fenced and happened in real life. So you can see, oh, this is. I just don't have these random followers, but I'm actually, these are real humans that this person has interacted with this, then it's a proof of a heartbeat and proof of a person behind the scenes, which is gonna be more and more important long term as these agents are just manipulating us and acting like they're actually our best friend. Yeah, yeah, I've noticed you're saying effectively you could have a social graph that was based on actual real world proximity. Well, I think it's a gradient of trust. I think when we come to social in the future, you're gonna say, who is this other person? And yes, we'll have our household names that we know that's actually a person behind the scenes there. But if you're reading a product review on Reddit, how do you know that that is a person or a bot or something else or somewhere in between. Right. And I think this idea of a gradient of trust where you say, okay, I know this is a human because they've had this many in person interactions and if they're talking about, let's just say, an OURA ring, they can do what's called a ZK proof or a product attestation where they can say, I actually have owned this for the last five years and I can prove it without compromising my privacy. That type of gradient of trust and exposure of what's going on here is gonna be so essential to understanding. Can we actually believe behind the scenes that there's something real here versus it just. I, I still. I still Every, every time I see an a comment or a post that's obviously written by AI.

So I think liquidity infrastructure, like for liquidity is one way to think about, like what. What do you think about Bezos's background at D.E. shaw? He was a trader. That probably informs a little bit of the shape of Amazon, I imagine, versus say Google, where they come out of research PhDs. What were you working on beforehand? Do you feel like you brought a trader mindset into the, you know, entrepreneurial journey that you went on? Yeah. Not just the product layer. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think trading. Well, I don't really know what kind of trading Bezos was doing, but at least with more like automated trading, I think there's a lot of. It feels a bit like doing physics kind of. It's like you do a lot of approximations. You don't. You can't get anything exactly right because markets are, are basically. There's a lot of randomness, there's more noise than there is signal, and that's kind of what makes it beautiful. It's like trying to sift through the noise. And it's very different from supervised learning setups in AI where you kind of have roughly infinite data and it's very high quality. So I do think the real world is building. Hyperliquid has felt kind of like that in the sense that you, you often. It feels like we're actually not very data driven at all. It's basically all intuition. It's just like we just think really hard about how the world should be and we just try to do the best thing, that it will obviously adapt to data. Like if something happens and it's like obviously bad, we aren't delusional and we'll incorporate it readily, but we won't go out of our way to try to create data where it doesn't make sense to, if that makes sense. So like AB testing is like something that we just kind of like never do. Oh yeah, that's funny, you've mentioned it a few times. But can we just get like a firm.

Ideals of satoshi. I think it's still worth striving for. No, no. How much did you know exactly what you wanted to build and then just executed against that plan versus iterate to get where you are today? I would say very little. So the story there is we just wanted to come and do something that we could do well. And even doing one thing well, it's very, very hard. So we were laser focused at first. We just kind of looked around and thought like we kind of, we weren't afraid to dream big but we were kind of practical about it. We just thought like okay, like what's one really, really big thing in crypto that we think could benefit from a fully permissionless platform? And purpose trading was the obvious one. I think it was probably doing more than 50% of the revenue in all of crypto back then, sort of back of the envelope calculations. And so we tackled that initially and I think one big thing is we weren't willing to compromise even at the very beginning on how the thing ought to work. So you learned the things not to do from ftx. You were inspired by satoshi. Was there any company off chain that was particularly inspiring? Yeah, a bunch. I mean I think every big company, every big tech company I think is like very inspirational to me. I grew up in the Bay Area so it's, it's hard to not kind of be sort of motivated by that. I think Amazon was a really big one. That what inspired me was that they basically like they're the very first principles and like driven but also, and also very practical. And I think when sort of, I assume it was Bezos, but maybe someone else in the org realized that they had built so much of the Internet stack that they, it would be a shame if they, if that just went to this like retail business. Like why not sort of abstract it a bit and create the right APIs so that anyone can leverage this like amazing infrastructure they've built. And you know that kind of being the birth of AWS and cloud computing. I think that's like such an amazing story and that's inspired. I think like that's kind of like how we think of hyperliquid was that like it started as you know, a blockchain optimized just to be able to do on train purpose trading because no other infrastructure could do that. And sort of realizing at some point that a lot of other things in finance, ultimately all of finance we think can benefit from this high performance, decentralized ledger and yeah, yeah. So I think liquidity infrastructure like for liquidity is one way to think about like. What do you think about bezos background at D.E. shaw? He was a traitor.

Should scale so we can solve this. It's not like finding the next cancer drug or something a little bit more obscure. If VCs are screwed, maybe not today, but in the future, where are you most excited to invest? And what do you think the role today, and what do you think the role of VC actually looks like in a decade? Yeah, so, I mean, I wear two hats. I'm a partner over True Ventures. We're managing a little over 4 billion. So we have a lot of companies. I think VCs are very much. Yeah, exactly. Here we go. Wow. All right, I got one. There it is. $4 billion. I love it. I was wondering if I was going to get one today. Of course. This is fantastic. Thank you. Takes one big number. So one big number. So 4 billion. But the companies that need our funding more than anything else right now are hardware companies, because they actually have to bring a product to market. They have the tooling, they have all of the prototypes. There is a lot to put and we, you know, have done. We did Ring and Fitbit and Peloton and all these great companies, and we saw hundreds of millions of dollars to get these companies off the ground and to scale. Now, on the software side, it's different. It's different because I can. We can see vibe coders creating these things, getting to their first hundred thousand or five hundred thousand users, never raising any cap and getting revenue. Getting revenue. And now guess what? That valuation jumped up from a $10 million pre to a 50 to a 75 or whatever it may be. Or they don't ra capital at all, which is great. Have that lifestyle business bring in 20 million in ARR. So we need a. We need a SF mayorial candidate that is focused on freezing seed valuations like the Zone.

Like, if you had Salesforce and you're like, oh, we customize the crap out of it, it's still going to be customized. Salesforce, it won't be your own thing. Sure, sure. And now you have the ability just to build your own thing. Yeah. And in like a day. Yeah. Which is great. Yeah. The thing that we've seen that with Vibe, the state of Vibe coding today is like, you can build the V1 extremely fast. Then the actual maintenance is like a real. Like, is. Is ends up being like, if it takes you 10 hours to build it, it might take you hundreds of hours over. I think that's problem is going to be solved. Very. I had interviewed the CEO of Vercel recently. Yeah. Grandma's great. And he was talking about this idea of Vibe check, which is just like an agent that is deployed to check your code and actually go in and fix bugs and actually get it to scale. And the beautiful thing about engineering is these are all. They're not subjective realities. Like, they all have problems that are defined, that have an answer. The bug. The bug should go away. The code should scale. Like, so we can solve this. You know, it's not like finding the next cancer drug or something a little bit more obscure. Yeah. Where. Where if VCs are screwed, maybe not today, but in the future, where.

Leasing is. Is that the correct frame of mind? Is that how you think about this? Yeah. So I think we, we took a lot of inspiration from Satoshi. I think he or you know, whoever, whoever built bitcoin, they not sure but satoshi, we'll just say Satoshi was very unique. I think bitcoin was the first in so many ways but one of, one of the main ways in which it was first was that it was. It's not a, it's not a product like you said. It's not, it's not a top down company. Yeah. It's a product and I think defi and crypto in general like a lot of it's kind of. It was inspired. Obviously everything comes from bitcoin and there will never be another bitcoin. But I think there's been a lot of kind of like top down like web to totally so standard tech approaches in crypto. Like if you look at centralized exchanges, that's a great example. They're very good businesses but they're like mega corporations there. They're not very like crypto native in that sense. And so we take a lot of inspiration from satoshi and so hyperlucid really is what we think like incredibly neutral protocol which will ultimately be the rails that all the finance kind of upgrades their tech stack to use. Yeah. So no VCS is at least the lore. Can you unpack that? Is that just because.