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Password resets. We gotta go over to the OpenAI device. There's new leaks, alleged leaks. We'll see. It's a new audio wearable meant to replace AirPods. This aligns with what the information has been leaking. The code name Sweet Pea. Interesting. It looks like a metal egg stone with two little capsules behind the ear. Aiming for a 2 nanometer chip, maybe a custom chip for phone like actions. Big ambition. 50 million units in year one. That's a lot of devices. Yeah. So Foxconn has been told to prepare for five total devices by Q4 of 2028. All not known. But a home style device and a pen are still considered. I wonder how serious going to Foxconn. If you're OpenAI, you go to Foxconn, you say prepare for five devices. What does that really mean? Does it mean, okay, help me prototype, do some demo runs, build me one or two and maybe we'll do one of the five. May. Maybe we'll do two of the five. Is Foxconn really reorienting everything around this? Are they totally prepared to make 5? How serious is that? I don't know. All I know is that it's exciting. I like hardware, it's fun. We're seeing it. We're seeing glimpse of this with the kids, with the board and with the. What was it called? Camera box. No, sticker box. Yeah, sticker box. Yeah. And I think, I mean OpenAI. It sounds like Johnny's team are the ones that are kind of pushing for this form factor, according to. Obviously this is a rumor, but picking a form factor similar to AirPods, which have insane product market fit, which last time I checked are like a $20 billion revenue line for Apple. It could be a standalone business by itself. And again, if you look back to the infamous interview with Gerstner, Sam was saying, like, we have a device coming. Yeah, we have a device coming. Don't worry, don't worry about it. That's a lot of revenue, potentially. I mean, I don't know if they sell them. What do you think the price point for a OpenAI device would be? $300 1,999. 3,500. Like the. I feel like they have to stay in the range of AirPods. And AirPods are between 100 and $300. Bill, basically. So low single digit hundreds. Well, Andrew Curran has a projection for what it'll look like if they ship this. I think they got an absolute blockbuster on their hands. I would rock that. We're already wearing in ear monitors. I don't know if you can see over here. Just upgrade it to this. This goes so hard. It goes so hard. The reason I like it is because the computer part is actually on the back, so it frees you up to just stay totally locked in. Super cool. And also I love that there's a display that you can't see but everyone else can. So everyone else knows. Oh, he's doing a deep research report right now. Oh, he's locked in. Let's check in on John. John, can you turn around for a second? Yeah. Oh, okay. Three green lights. He's printing. He's making money. Ryan says this will be as successful as humane friend, rabbit, et cetera. Oh, no. Yeah. Let us know in the chat if you're bullish or bearish on the OpenAI device. A lot of risk, but a lot of resources, a lot of good people.

Chips to silicon to apple silicon. And of course, the iPhone air. Not a really hot seller, apparently not doing that well financially necessarily. But from an engineering perspective, people are very excited about it. Apple employee friend of mine said he got the iPhone air as the worst iPhone he's ever bought. Really? Wow. Roasted. Absolutely brutal. Well, before we talk more about the iPhone air, let me tell you about label box. Delivering you the highest quality data for frontier AI. Get in the box. The label box. Apple, you know, you need some training data. You know, you need some high quality training data for your frontier AI. You need some data to train on Siri. Get on label box. Get in the box. So the iPhone air, obviously it even might, you know, reviews are mixed. Reviews are not great. Some people complain about different things, some people love it, but it hasn't been flying off the shelves. But when you see the x ray. Remember that story, you know, of the founder who said, this is the strongest iPhone ever made. Nobody can possibly break this. It's impossible. What happened next? And then it was quickly broken in half by a gundam. That was an iPhone. Air Smashed. Smashed. But you can imagine the innovation that went into making the iPhone air so small. Could be used for a foldable phone, which was probably coming. Could be used for more miniaturization if they do some sort of lapel pin or something else. They clearly have packed a lot of power into such a small form factor. So.

200 to 330 was just five months. So little. Quite the acceleration. Really, really good. And he is looking sharp here on Bloomberg. And also just it's such an interesting story because when this came out, it was the textbook critique of, like, the other labs are going to steamroll you. They have all the researchers, they have all the compute, they have all the money. Oh, it doesn't matter what you raise. They raised 100 times that. This is a side project. They're going to be able to whip this up in a cave.

Support giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. We gotta go over to the OpenAI device. There's new leaks. Alleged leaks. We'll see. It's a new audio wearable meant to replace AirPods. This aligns with what the information has been leaking. The code name Sweet Pea. Interesting. It looks like a metal egg stone with two little capsules behind the earth aiming for a two nanometer chip, maybe a custom chip for phone like actions. Big ambition. 50 million units in year one. That's a lot of devices. Yeah. So Foxconn has been told to prepare for five total devices by Q4 of 2028. All not known. But a home style device and a pen are still considered. I wonder how serious going to foxconn. If you're OpenAI, you go to Foxconn and you say, prepare for five devices. What does that really mean? Does it mean, okay, help me prototype, do some demo runs, build me one or two and maybe we'll do one of the five. Maybe we'll do two of the five. Is Foxconn really reorienting everything about this? Are they totally prepared to make 5? How serious is that? I don't know. All I know is that it's exciting. I like hardware, it's fun. We're seeing glimpse of this with the kids, with the board and with the. What was it called? Camera box. No, sticker box. Yeah, sticker box. Yeah. And I think, I mean OpenAI. It sounds like Johnny's team are the ones that are kind of pushing for this form factor. According to. Obviously this is a rumor, but picking a form factor similar to AirPods, which have insane product market fit, which last time I checked are like a $20 billion revenue line for Apple, it could be a standalone business by itself. And again, if you look back to the infamous interview with Gerstner, Sam was saying, like, we have a device coming. Yeah, we have a device coming. Don't worry, don't worry about it. That's a lot of revenue, potentially. I mean, I don't know if they sell them. What do you think the price point for a OpenAI device would be? $300 1,999. 3,500. Like the. I feel like they have to stay in the range of AirPods. AirPods and AirPods are between 100 and $300, basically. So low single digit hundreds. Well, Andrew Curran has a projection for what it'll look like if they ship this. I think they got an absolute blockbuster on their hands.

And so I said, why don't the US fuel companies make that fuel? And they said there aren't really any. You say depending on Russia and China. Is it true that the Hailu, the nuclear fuel that comes from Russia is they actually take it out of a missile that's nuclear. Does that happen? Or they take it out of a nuclear submarine? Where are they getting it in Russia? Why do they have it? Why don't we? Yeah. Not a wives tale, but they have their own enrichment capability in Russia. They do, they do, yep. They're actually the world leader in enrichment. More than half of world market cap. You know, capacity is in Russia. You've got Europe number two and China quickly growing as number three. US used to be number one. Back in the 80s we were about 85% of global enrichment. Today less than 0.1%. So we went from first place to basically last place. And what, what were the catalysts for that? It was exactly what you're saying of the down blending back from pre Cold War. Obviously there was post the fall of the Berlin Wall, there was mutual disarmament goals and there was trade. And so it was called the megatons to megawatts program where the US worked with Russia to downblend weapons into fuel that could be run in reactors. That was the start of it. And then with the fall of the Berlin Wall, I think the US basically said, hey, free trade, let's go get our fuel from other countries who do this very affordably and consistently. And maybe we don't need to have this out outdated capability of gaseous diffusion which was running at a few sites in the us so over time we basically outsourced it. Other countries were better than us at it and we allowed that skill to atrophy. Yeah. When you look at the S curve of nuclear power growth, we went through this exponential period and then it basically flatlined for, I don't know, 40, 50 years. How much of that is due to Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, like fear mongering? How much of it is due to just the oil and gas companies being elite and just compounding and compounding. And they're just so big that they can hire all the best talent, do all the best lobbying. What are the different factors that go into the plateau that we've seen in nuclear power generation? Yeah. On limiting nuclear power, I think everyone lists those things. People will also mention the regulator. Yeah, I think it's none of those things. Interesting. Yeah. So if you actually look at the data, nuclear has been the safest, cleanest form of baseload power, but it hasn't been the cheapest. And so you know, that S curve followed a period and maxing out the S curve really was at a time where costs were just rising dramatically on nuclear builds. Yeah, they were run like huge construction projects. So most of nuclear all the way through the 90s was classic light water reactors, you know, billion, $10 billion projects over schedule run just like highway projects, like other things that just were not done efficiently. The move you now see towards advanced reactors is all about changing that. So all the advanced reactors basically have two goals. One is often increase safety, the other is decrease cost. Glad they care about safety, often passive safety. So not relying on active measures. Yeah, yeah, but essentially and the goal, the goal here is like you have a private company who has somebody they have know potential customers that will pay for power or even help them fund the capex and they're heavily incentivized to stay on schedule and deliver it at a cost or deliver effectively the system at a cost that whereas like a government, you know, funded project has maybe less of an incentive to actually hit cost, you know, stay within budget. Yeah, I think the key dimension is the, that they want to be factory built. And so if you're factory built, okay, we can get these coming off an assembly line. We can have the parts made with extreme consistency and bring costs down over time and then those pieces can be deployed out to a site and installed and turned online. And that's what the acronym SMR is, Small Modular reactor. Where the small part is small enough to be built in a factory. So that's the whole point. Now if you go that small, how. Is that place plane size at the. Think of like extremely wide load size. So highway transportable bus size is shipping. Container sized, 1 megawatt. So replacement for a diesel generator usually. Exactly. And now people are talking about well what if we get 1,000 of those together we get a gigawatt, maybe we can power an AI data center. Is the AI boom and the AI narrative changing anything for you? Is there more maybe about your business, but also just about regulatory openness, excitement about the case category, just getting real about a transition to a different fuel source. Yeah, I think you've seen a few tailwinds in the nuclear space. AI has certainly been a huge tailwind and the hyperscalers have always wanted basically.

Primarily Kentucky. Talk to me about solar. You worked at SpaceX. Elon's a bit of a solar maxi. At least it seems like he's a solar maxi. It's always hard to read the tea leaves from his post, but solar seems like a similar opportunity. It's a big scale, it's unlimited. It's the fusion reactor in the sky with unlimited energy. And a lot of folks have painted sci fi solar punk futures. You obviously looked at those companies too. How do the two technologies play together? Why did you think nuclear was the real bottleneck? What are the benefits of nuclear relative to solar? When do you pick one over the other? What does the blend look like over the next couple decades? Yep. Yeah. So the solar AI data center in orbit concept is a new thing. You know, it's probably the last few weeks that's really become something people are talking about. If we rewind a couple of years ago and we're talking, okay, data centers on Earth. Yeah. And, and do you want to do solar or do you want to do nuclear? Solar obviously takes a lot more area on the ground, but there is plenty of area for that. In general, the missing piece was really storage. So solar is inherently cyclical. You need to smooth it out. To smooth it out, you need very cheap grid scale, or at least gigawatt scale storage, batteries. Batteries. Batteries or other forms. We haven't had that yet. At a cost point that I think can compete with nuclear, that could change and that would be great. But for now, in the foreseeable future on Earth, it's nuclear. And that's what you mean by baseload nuclear power plant. Once you fire it up, you're getting whatever it says. If it says 1 megawatt, you get 1 megawatt 24 hours a day. Doesn't matter if it's sunshine, rain, snow. That's right. Versus turning off at nighttime and having to go off the batteries that were charged up during the day. Yeah. And now when we talk about in orbit, it's a whole different ballgame because. You can be in sun synchronous orbit, you get sunlight like 99% of the time, Correct? That's right. Got it. So. So if you have very cheap launch capacity, if your GPUs don't weigh very much, which they don't, and they're high value, you could potentially put all of that in orbit, have your solar panel completely in sun sync, solve the battery issue. The one remaining piece is you've got a lot of incident solar energy. You're going to run those GPUs. How do you cool them? And I think that's the piece that people are going to be working on for the next few years. Yeah, that's the material science question. So you're saying put the solar panels in orbit, keep them off the Earth. Earth is your domain. Right. Going to do nuclear down here. That works. Of course, we'll do both. Until, of course, you know, the 2040 pitch, for general matter, we're putting a reactor on the moon. On the moon? Moon reactors. Nuclear does have applications.

Maybe I. And then after that, it falls off pretty darn. The biggest airline in the world's about a third of our market cap. I mean, Expedia is a fit. I mean, so we have the size, we've got the scale to do the work, to come up with these wonderful things that are going to be coming down the pike. Yeah, Yep. So, obviously, it feels like it's advantageous to have as much experience as you have at the company.

You can do in a 12 to 18 month cycle. Right. So for us, we're online by end of decade. That is our goal. That's our line in the sand. Late last year, in August, we announced a lease with the DOE in Kentucky to re industrialize a site that used to host enrichment in Paducukan, Kentucky. That's right, that's right. So we are now breaking ground and preparing that site to build on. That'll be online by end of decades. That's roughly our timeline. That timeline is dictated by construction and by licensing. Basically those two things, the scale of construction and the scale of actually bringing it online on day one will be increased through this award that we received last week. So that's, that's the main way it impacts us is it actually brings commercial scale, domestic scale, satisfying all us needs forward a few years earlier. Yeah, Are you, are you, are you a dependency or going, are you going to be a dependency for some of these other projects that are saying like, okay, we're going to build all of this infrastructure, but ultimately we're going to need fuel, otherwise the whole thing doesn't actually matter. That's right, yeah. So after the decade of meeting different reactor companies, I realized none of them had a good source of fuel. And if you take a step back, fuel is upstream of everything. So if energy is upstream of all economic activity, fuel is upstream of energy. And if you can't make your own fuel, you can't do all the other things that you want to do. So within nuclear, there's this missing step of enrichment in the US and so to answer your question, yes, we think that enrichment is the key bottleneck for nuclear energy. Yeah. How on earth have you obtained.

To inject latest and greatest technology from anywhere around the country to some of these new weapons systems. Last question from me. I remember talking to Shyam Sankar at Palantir and he told this amazing anecdote about the early days of Palantir. They built a piece of software, put a bunch of dots on a map, right? He goes to deliver it and the machine that they tried to install it on had 1 megabyte of RAM or something, and so it just couldn't run the software. And I'm wondering, you have this Panasonic Toughbook on your website. How do you think or how do you work or do you work with your customers to understand where products can be actually deployed? Because once you're beyond the air gap, you're probably doing more things on device at the edge. What are the hardware constraints? I imagine that there's a ton in the age of AI, you can't just run llama locally on some 10 year old toughbook. How are you working with clients on understanding hardware and how it will enable their software to be delivered? Yeah, you nailed the problem, which is in these military systems, if you want to do a software update, you effectively have to update the hardware. And that's why the hardware is so out of date, is because for the new iterations of systems, they've struggled to integrate it, it hasn't worked successfully. So that latest and greatest program that was supposed to deliver didn't deliver. So you're stuck with the legacy system. Now that happens two or three times and before you know it, people are still stuck on Windows 95, you know, to take your, you know, true story, you know, those types of things are super common. So, so how do we actually, you know, find success? How do we actually enable the warfighter? Well, if you actually make it easy enough to deliver, in many cases you don't have to update the hardware. In your example, certainly you do. It's already gone too far. But a lot of cases what we're doing is we're finding, you know, certain weapon systems, you know, they've had a hardware, you know, refresh, if you will, say a year or two, you know, go. It's not the latest and greatest, but it can actually run way more software than what was available two years ago. Can you actually do a software update on that slightly older hardware to make it mission effective? And then you also nailed a key fundamental point, which is these things, modern AI is a memory hawk. And if you're going to war with outdated hardware, which is the reality, and you're trying to get the latest and greatest AI, you actually have to have the ability to update the software on demand. So you might be flying a mission and saying, hey, I need this specialized local AI model. And then the next day you're running a new mission, and you might actually need a different AI model. The way war is conducted today, that would actually be a full reset. That'd be a whole new maintenance period. The jets or the Navy ship would actually go down. It's not really viable with defense unicorns, you actually have that capability. That is good to hear.

Appearances. They're based in the US that's other things. So one of the biggest things is that we hire defense unicorns. The other thing is, if we're successful as a company, one of the biggest things we'd like to see in the ecosystem is like, it's not going to be just 1, 10, 20 defense unicorns in the ecosystem. There's actually going to be hundreds or thousands. So just like quick back of the envelope numbers for folks. You look at somebody like Nvidia and they do 200 billion ish a year revenue. You know, you have a Department of War that spends a trillion a year. That's 5, 5x that. And you know, as you guys mentioned earlier on the show, you know, Trump's talking about increasing that to 1.5 trillion. Yeah. And so when you think about this from like a market opportunity perspective, what you actually find out is that there's most, most likely, probably several, you know, multi trillion dollar companies. And then when you cascade that down, what you're actually going to find is that there's not just $dozens, but hundreds of defense unicorns that should be entering the ecosystem. Okay, very cool.

Time and our business is doing great right now. We don't need too much AI. Yeah, before I started Sandstone, most of my work was at McKinsey, helping big law firms think about AI and tech strategy. And we would actually go out and deploy AI solutions for some of these big firms. And I think the hardest thing was you have to go to every partner in every practice area as if it's its own business and kind of sell, you know, a one off solution to them and get them on board with the fact that, hey, this might have some implications on your billable hour model going forward with in house. It's completely different, right when, when they see solutions that can take a lot of the admin work off their plate. Generally the GC thinks, hey, now my team can go focus on being in more of the business strategy conversations and become more, you know, proactive around potential risks and issues with our company rather than, you know, reactive and trying to play catch up on all the requests that we have coming in. I think this is like one of the bigger paradox paradoxes within legal and within AI more broadly is like as legal teams get more efficient on the admin side and collecting the context which we're working on, they're going to be able to be in more business discussions, protect the company from more risk, but also have more work ultimately. And so, you know, a lot of our legal teams, I anticipate they'll continue to grow as they adopt more AI, but they'll just do in a more effective way for the business and we'll see a world where like, you know, the top law firms in the future need to be AI native and enabled. But I think the top legal teams in the future and even the top companies will have to have like these native legal teams similar to how, you know, ramp. I think if you're using RAMP as a smaller company and your finance team is using it, you're probably spending a little bit less on, you know, services that you typically might have on the financial and accounting side. And it's also helping your business move faster. I think historically we didn't see that in finance. You see the same in HR with workday. And so I think legal will get there over time. How's growth been? Growth has been.

You say depending, depending on Russia and China. Is it true that the Hailu, the nuclear fuel that comes from Russia is they actually take it out of a missile that's nuclear. Does that happen? Or they take it out of a submarine? Where are they getting it in Russia? Why do they have it? Why don't we? Why don't we? Yeah. Not, not a wives tale, but, you know, they have their own enrichment capability in Russia. They do, they do, yep. They're actually the world leader in enrichment. More than half of world market capacity capacity is in Russia. You've got Europe number two. And China quickly growing as number three. US used to be number one. Back in the 80s we were about 85% of global enrichment. Today, less than 0.1%. So we went from first place to basically last place. And what were the catalysts for that? It was exactly what you're saying of the down blending back from pre Cold War. Obviously there was post the fall of the Berlin Wall, there was mutual disarmament goals and there was trade. And so it was called the megatons to megawatts program where the US worked with Russia to downplay weapons into fuel that could be run in reactors. That was the start of it. And then with the fall of the Berlin Wall, I think the US basically said, hey, free trade, let's go get our fuel from other countries who do this very affordably and consistently. And maybe we don't need to have this outdated capability of gaseous diffusion which was running at a few sites in the us so over time we basically outsourced it. Other countries were better than us at it and we allowed that skill to atrophy. Yeah. When you look at the S curve of nuclear power growth, we went through this exponential period and then it basically flatlined, I don't know, 40, 50 years. How much of that is due to Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, like fear mongering? How much of it is due to just the oil and gas companies being elite and just compounding and compounding. And they're just so big that they can hire all the best talent, do all the best lobbying. What are the different factors that go into the plateau that we've seen in nuclear power generation? Yeah. On limiting nuclear power, I think everyone lists those things. People will also mention the regulator. I think it's none of those things. Interesting. Yeah. So if you actually look at the data, nuclear has been the safest, cleanest form of baseload power, but it hasn't been the cheapest. And so that S curve followed a period and maxing out the S curve really was at a time where costs were just rising dramatically on nuclear builds. They were run like huge construction projects. So most of nuclear all the way through the 90s was classic light water reactors. Billion. $10 billion projects over schedule run just like highway projects, like other things that just were not done efficiently. The move you now see towards advanced reactors is all about changing that. So all the advanced reactors basically have two goals. One is often increase safety, the other is decrease cost. Glad they care about safety, often passive safety. So not relying on active measures. Yeah, yeah, but essentially. And the goal, the goal here is like you have a private company who has somebody, they have, you know, potential customers that will pay for power or even help them fund the capex, and they're heavily incentivized to stay on schedule and deliver it at a cost or deliver effectively the system at a cost. Whereas like a government funded project has maybe less of an incentive to actually hit cost, you know, stay within budget. Yeah, I think the key dimension is that they want to be factory built. And so if you're factory built, okay, we can get these coming off an assembly line. We can have the parts made with extreme consistency and bring costs down over time and then those pieces can be deployed out to a site and installed and turned online. Yeah, and that's what the, you know the acronym SMR is Small Modular Reactor, where the small part is small enough to be built in a factory. So that's the whole point. Now if you go that small, how. Is that, is that plane size at. The think of like extremely wide load size. So highway transportable. So dominant bus size is shipping container sized, 1 megawatt. So replacement for a diesel generator usually. Exactly. And now people are talking about, well, what if we get 1,000 of those together? We get a gigawatt, maybe we can power an AI data center. Is the AI boom and the AI narrative changing anything for you?

Pieces around. I have one last question. That's right. I will let you go. You travel a lot. You run a travel company. What's the secret to avoiding jet lag? Just keep doing it. You'll be in normal state all the time. You'll never stop moving. This is good. Just don't stop. That's essentially just man up, just suck it up and just disregard it. Just ignore it. I love that. That's the best advice I've heard. People will tell you all sorts of take your shoes off, do this, do that. I like that one. That's great. No, no, it's ridiculous, okay? And I've never felt jet lag. Per. This is breaking. We need to put this on a headline. Breaking. It doesn't exist. It's just a figment of your. Figment of your imagination. Yeah, it's. Not the imagination is. You're going from. JFK to Amsterdam, okay? It's a six and. A half hour flight. You're going to best because you got to wait to take over. And then they wake you up when you're landing. Maybe you'll get four hours. Good. Maybe you're gonna be tired. It's not your leg. You got four hours sleep. That's why you're tired. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Makes sense. Well, I hope.

Competition is very, very stiff. How difficult is it for an AI to act as a travel agent? Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. We've had this question where the AI models seem so powerful. They can build whole websites, they can write more complex code than I could write in a month. They can do it in just an hour. And yet I actually can't just say, hey, I need to get to New York, book me a flight, because I wind up having all these weird preferences. I don't want to layover. I'm okay FL flying early, but I don't really want to fly late. Yeah, when people talk, every, every lab wants to build the best, you know, super assistance. And when I think about the moments where, like, a real EA in my life has delivered the most value, it's when I'm like, okay, this meeting's running late. I'm gonna miss my flight. Yeah, I need a re. You know, and I'm just firing off a text, being like, you know, I need to switch the car to pick me up, like in an extra hour, and I'm gonna miss my flight. Find me the best flight. I don't want to layover. Like, I want to lay flat, like, all these details that today that still takes, you know, that still takes real time. And so I'm curious for you, like, where do these experience. Where do you see these experiences actually sitting? Is it, is it in, you know, ChatGPT or Gemini or. It's. It's going to be sitting in Siri. Yep. Or will it be sitting on booking.com and you guys want to own that experience or both? Right. Or will it be in many of the places you just mentioned? Because, for example, right now, let's. Let's look at what we have right now. We have some. We have 60, approximately 65% of the people who come to our site to buy something, do something, want to actually do that. They are coming to us direct now. I'm doing that number. I'm not including our B2B business on the side there, but 65% of the people are coming in directly to our site. There's a loyalty thing. Why now? Why? Because it's easier. Because we know who they are. We already have established certain things that they like and are able to provide them with that. That's great. The thing in the future, though, with the ability of memory of limbs to remember what your preferences are over time, that is obviously a powerful thing. Now we are doing that within ourselves, creating our own ability to make sure your example, I Want a flat bed. I only like to take the flight at night. All sorts of those things. Those are the things that we are putting in. Because what we really want is using technology to replace what you just that executive assistant who knows everything about you, who loves to make sure they do exactly what you want and you don't have to ask him or her how to do it. They know how to do it. That's what we are building. What's even more so because your EA should know but may not know, for example, that I forgot I got to stop by and buy a present because I'm going to visit my friend in France. May not know that, but we want to have it so much so that we know so much about you. We know that not only we know that, we know it's going to take a 10 minute delay and oops, you may not make that flight because of the delay on the highway. So we're going to switch all this stuff around for you. Suggest should we do this because it looks like you're not going to make it. So then you can get on a flight. You don't miss the flight. And then because it's a new flight, we automatically are changing the car pickup that you have. And we're changing because now your dinner reservations can be later. We're changing that too. And if there is no availability at that restaurant, because we have open table, we're looking for a restaurant that's very similar to it, right near it. And we're going to put a new reservation for you and your friend there. And in addition, because we know you're going to be incredibly tired and you're going to be all upset, what we're going to do is get you a special favor from the hotel. So when you show up at the hotel, you got your favorite bottle of wine and all these things can be done. The technology is there. We just have to stitch it together. That's the hard part. How are you processing the rise of voice agencies.

To this video by storm crew on YouTube. The boss asked me to take on 10 robots by myself. An individual has assembled a set of 10 unitree, or humanoid robots, got in the boxing ring and fought them. And the results are very, very interesting. We'll have to sort of click through a little bit of this video here. He fights incremental amounts of. We've been wanting somebody to do this forever. I've wanted to do this personally. I want to fight the humanoids. Look at this. So it's one on one, and it's not too bad. He can just hold it off. He's just. He's just holding it. Can't do anything. Now, keep in mind, this is the Unitree. I believe it's the G1, the cheaper, smaller version. Now he's one on three. Let's see what happens. He's kicked. They're kicking. Oh, he does the bull rush. That's a. I had not thought of that strategy. Oh, he's pushing them over. And with these small unit tree guys, once you get them down, they can get up, but they're pretty easy to pin. He starts. He starts fighting five. This is one on five. Now he needs a flashback. And they are hitting him. They are hitting him. He's taking some blows. Oh, he knocks one down. That's a good hit. Their movement looks surprising. Oh, he picks it up. Oh, we're going WWE mode. He picks it up and slams it down. Oh, he gets back up. He's got to throw it down. They really. They need bigger robots because it looks like he's just bullying when they. When they pop up. That is. That is a scary animation. Okay. Picking it up and throwing it out of the ring. Oh, my God. Slammed onto the ground. Yeah, slammed onto the ground. Well, he finally. Oh, okay. He's fighting like six or seven here. They're really closing in at this point. This. This is where it starts to get intimidating. Gets a little hairy. I feel like seven. You know, you can't keep your eyes on all of them falling over, but if you use them against each other. Yeah, Creating the pile. The pile method. That's what you want to go for. You want to create a huge heap of humanoid robots. This is the benchmark. The Terminator benchmark. Terminator Bench. This is the only benchmark I really. Care about who wins. AI or humans. But then he adds the G2, which is the newer unitree robot, and this one is a little bit more athletic, and things start to get a little bit riskier. Do we think they're teleoperated? I imagine all of this is teleoperated. This seems like some sort of ad integration or some AI Some. We're at appreciators. I don't know what's going on. Let's skip to the final bit. I think we can skip ahead. I think it starts at 208. Maybe we can see robot 10x. That was a clean. Yeah. So he's boxing the big guy and he hits. Yeah, it's. It's pretty. He's knocked on the ground. It's not looking good for humanity. Very, very rough. If we skip to. I think he's getting a little fatigued. Oh, yeah, he is. He's running out of gas. It's tiring. I think. I think the conclusion of this headbutt. From a seat that looks very dangerous. I think the conclusion of this video is that he loses. You know, who knows how scripted this is. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. A lot of cuts. A lot of cuts. You know, it's mostly entertainment, but it's good entertainment. Challenge yourself to fight robots with difficulty levels ranging from 1 to 10 robots. See how many you can. Ultimate Ko. That could be a good sort of. You know those VR centers where you go and do VR in person. You could go and do this in your local. Put that next to your CrossFit gym.

Every time I see one of these new features drop from Claude Cowork or OpenAI ChatGPT Health, it just feels like the Siri thing is bigger and bigger. Back to what Tyler was saying about implementation of the model because Apple has Apple Health, there's a whole promise there of what Apple Health as an app can do. You want that to be AI enabled. They, so they need to update that as well. And there's, there's so many different okay, shopping agent to commerce. Like, like there's Apple Pay is Apple Pay integrated with Siri and the new AI function. So they really do need to go around and update all over the place if they want to stay. You know they have some dominant positions carved out but every AI company is trying to eat off Apple's plate and as much as they can. But there's really, really strong lock in to most of the Apple ecosystem. So they, they, it's not over if they don't move right now and get the app out and get updates out. But it's very clear that if, if you know Apple or ChatGPT Health is rolling out, you know it's going to take time for people to ramp up, start integrating things, start using it. But if that behavior develops and it's another two, three years until Apple responds like yeah, they are going to be a laggard in that category. There's a Claude Cowork reaction thread going on from Zvi Mushowitz. Lots of people.

Nevertheless, Faith, how have you been processing all of the agentic commerce news? We had Harley from Shopify on the store on the show yesterday talking about what Google's doing. Obviously ChatGPT is interested in agentic commerce being able to complete transactions in the LLMs, in the chatbots, in the apps. How are you thinking about your strategy in a world where people want to purchase things through text and chat? Well, look, people always want things to be easier and agented commerce as a concept is fantastic. And we are doing a lot of work with all the frontier players. Absolutely. To be very hand in glove working together to come up with solutions using agent ways so people can do things easier, faster, better, etcetera, etcetera. That being said, it's going to take some time for things that are very complex like a lot of travel. Now I'm not doubting that we're going to be doing a lot of agentic travel transactions. Absolutely. It's just not going to be tomorrow. I'm really glad with some of the deals we've already done with all the players, there's not a single one that we haven't either set a deal, done a deal with, working with, making progress with, etc. But even more so is what we're going to do internally, what we're building ourselves. We have thousands of engineers. You know, one thing, I don't know if you're watchers or people watching, watch your show, really understand the size of our company. You know, we're 100 and approximately 170. 175 billion market cap company. Hit the gong, John. You got a gong here. We'd love to, we'd love to hit it on your behalf. What's even better is that, you know, that's twice as big as the next biggest player in travel. I'm talking, you know, distribution, travel to all travel. Like number two, maybe it's Marriott today. Oh, wow. Maybe. And then after that it falls off pretty darn. The biggest airline in the world is about a third of our market cap. I mean Expedia is a fifth. Yeah. I mean, so we have the size, we've got the scale to do the work to come up with these wonderful things that are going to be coming down the pipeline.

Service. If you want AI to handle your customer support, go to fin.AI. Okay, let me say one more. Yes. Okay. So I'm just saying, like, I'm about to flashbang you. Okay. If you're, like, writing this, who's the audience? Like Apple, right? You want to make a change? Yeah, maybe. Okay, so it's. Like Ben. Thompson comes on yesterday. All I'm saying is that is that. Is that I'm excited for. I'm excited to be able to access Gemini with a button. I feel like that's what this deal is giving me. Yeah. That's nothing to do with an app. But also, after I access Gemini with this button that trigger flashbang, then I want to be able to see my list. Lambda is the super intelligent.

But over time, I imagine that they will. But the big thing that I wanted to discuss with Tyler, he was fighting me on this. He says that Siri does not need an app. I think that Siri will need an app. I think that the LLM chat interface is so dominant at this point that everyone has the experience of going back and forth asynchronously. Like it's chatting to a helpful assistant. Like you're texting with a friend. You want to be able to scroll up and see. Yeah. If you think about it, it'd be very annoying if you had a real life assistant and they were. You can only call me. Well, I won't. Tyler, explain. Explain your position. So it's not that. Oh, no. You flashbacked him. Hit him with a flashback. Sorry. Trying to help you out, John. Opinion denied. Tyler, opinion denied. We have a flashbang now on the stream. What? Good timing. So, Tyler, once the flashbang wears off, please tell us. Okay, so it's not that I disagree. I'm not like anti app. It's just like the fifth most.

Billion dollars going from Apple to Google. Now, my real hot take is that I think it's going to flip at some point and I think Google or someone else is going to pay Apple to route LLM queries to them. Because with the universal commerce protocol, agentic commerce protocol, with ads and LLM responses, there's going to be a whole bunch of moments where a. An LLM query is actually profitable. And on average, I think they will be profitable. I think the price of inference will continue to decline and the value of each query, the monetization of each query will increase until there's a flippening. And then all of a sudden every LLM query that's generated is on net across the entire. Across the entire category, generating profit instead of generating losses, which is what's happening right now. Of course, just like with Google, when you search for, you know, how old is Leonardo DiCaprio or something, they're not making a lot of money on that. They're not running a lot of ads on that. But when you go to search for insurance or something like that, they. They charge a pretty penny for those ads. And I think the same thing will be true for LLMs broadly. It is kind of interesting. They don't. I just looked it up. They don't run ads on how old is Leonardo DiCaprio. You'd think that they could figure out some type of ad to serve. Yeah. You think Brian Johnson would be buying. An ad like some peptide because you're. Like, oh, he looks great and what's he doing? Oh, and then look like Leo. He's 51. Leo was born in the 70s, which is crazy when you say it like that. Yeah, well, he's looking great. He was at the. He was at the Golden Globes having fun, celebrating his movie. Goofing around. Yeah, yeah, he was goofing around. He was caught on like some mic looking at somebody. I don't know. I saw some random clips anyway, but the real thing I wanted to debate with Tyler was I was arguing that Siri needs an app. It's crazy. Siri came out in 2010, hasn't had an app for its entire life. I mean, it actually started as an app back in the day. It was. Siri is from the Stanford Institute of Research and Intelligence or something like that. Yeah. What was it? It was like a $200 million acquisition. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, seems like good value. Before we keep digging into Siri, let me tell you about Vanta Automate Compliance and Security. Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform. So it was an app that you needed to install on your iPhone. There were a few of these speech recognition apps that you could go and you'd open up the app, click a button Siri. Because I think the fact that they were on the west coast was able to get the deepest integration in Apple, sort of win the home button over time, win the Siri button. And eventually they teamed up and actually, oh, I have triggered Siri on my MacBook. There you go. Fantastic. And so eventually Siri gets baked into the operating system level and the rest is history. The first couple years are pretty good. People are excited. It was somewhat magical to be able to just press a button, ask for the weather, ask for a stock chart, ask for what's on your calendar, dictate a text message. A lot of that. That was pretty great. The user numbers are interesting. I don't know how much they disclosed. This is sort of a rumored number, but the estimates are around 500 million active Siri users globally. Which is huge. Absolutely massive. But there's 1.5 billion iPhone users. So having only a third of your user base use your AI feature seems a little bit low if that's the case. Ian Mackey says in the X chat Siri was born out of sri. Sri. Yeah, sri, which I believe is the Stanford Research Institute or something like that. I think that's where SRI comes from. But they're clearly not getting enough out of it. People aren't using it. Everyone in Texas. I never use Siri. Obviously some people do. Well, some people are using it now because we're saying Siri. Yeah, the chat said we triggered it for you. We triggered it. Sorry about that too. Anyway, so obviously juicing it up with an LLM like Gemini makes a ton of sense. Of course, Gemini is a sponsor of this show, Gemini 3 Pro. It's Google's most intelligent model yet. They got state of the art reasoning, next level vibe coding and deep multimodal understanding. But this deal between Google and Apple makes a ton of sense for a few reasons. Google's actually profitable, has the money. They don't need to take a huge amount of cash from Apple. They can give them sort of a deal on it because it's really fun. Ben kept throwing around big numbers yesterday. Like, let's be honest, we're in tax. It's not a lot of money. Yeah, and it's funny, it's actually true. It ramped up because at first it was the $30,000 DaVinci Resolve, the Blackmagic, Ursa immersive camera. That's $30,000. He's like, that's nothing. You just put those up. And that's true for a tech company. And he was like, apple's paying Google a billion dollars that they're both nothing. Yeah, the whole thing with The Alphabet's. A $4 trillion company. Now, the live. The infrastructure, the hardware to do a live Apple Vision Pro broadcast, being $30,000 or something in that range is like the fact that they could copy and paste that around every stadium and suddenly have like a. Probably. I imagine they could scale that to hundreds of millions of dollars of like, you'd think so. Pay per view and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Not even pay per view, but just a subscription. It's like the. Even just selling headsets. I mean, The Headse headset's $3,500. You only need to sell 10 headsets to offset the price of one immersive camera. Like, you should be able to do that anyway. We covered the Apple Vision Pro in detail yesterday. Ben Thompson joined the stream. You should go check out the video if you haven't watched that. And he actually gave us a shout out. He mentioned his appearance in the Stratechary Daily Update today, which is very fun. But. So my take is that I think over time this will flip. And I think over time, Google will be paying app for all of the LLM routing that happens because Google will be monetizing those queries. You will go to Siri and you will say, what's the weather? And Gemini under the hood will tell you the weather. And they probably won't monetize that very well. But then every once in a while, you'll say, hey, Gemini, order me a new tv. And it'll say, what size do you want? And it'll just order me rain. Rainmaker. Yeah, yeah, change the weather. And they will get either an affiliate fee or. Or a transaction fee or there will be an ad that's placed in the stream of content that comes back. And I would imagine that right now Apple's saying, don't do any of those ads. Don't monetize these queries. But over time, I imagine that they will. But the big thing that I wanted to discuss with Tyler, he was fighting me on that.

AI and stops breaches. And Rune is back to vague posting. He says that the elves have left for Valinor. Please, sir, can I have a crumb of context? Just a crumb. The I require context hat goes on elves, people. We need one. We need a hat here. We do. I require context hat. Yes. I don't know exactly what he's referring to. It is a vague post, but. But we'll have to dig into it. Maybe we'll have to have him back on the show. Well, QT Cash is speculating, saying given that run is likely referencing his own Quern comment talking about the downfall of OpenAI. What does this mean for the future? Gwern says, apropos of Sus. Now, having left OpenAI for good, I've gone back to my thinking about the long term consequences of Altman's coup. And something I began to wonder in 2021 when the news about Anthropic broke. What if the elves have left Middle earth? What if OpenAI has lost its mojo? If so, what would that look like? And how would we know? What's the rot narrative? Interesting. Interesting. Oh, wait. So Zoomer also says he's talking about the California tax proposal. Fed shenanigans. You're misreading the tweet. So the elves could just be our most loyal. And this is the power of vague posting. Yes. It's interpreted a bunch of different ways. Like sprinkling some tea leaves. People behind their own. Yes. I mean, regardless, OpenAI. Have they lost their mojo? Certainly not when it comes to vague posting. Tyler, what do you think? Okay. Yeah, so. So there's like the two different ways to look at it. Right? It's about California or Open AI. Yes, but. So I think he probably meant it as like, okay, this is bad. California billionaire tax. But like all the news about that has broken like earlier this week. Like all the. Everyone's leaving. Right? It's. It's kind of late to post that. Yeah, but it's a perfect time to post, as you kind of see at least the vibes on X like really hard going against OpenAI Pro for sure. So I think it's like if someone asks him about it, he's like, oh, it's about the billionaire tax. But you know, subtly maybe it's actually, it could also. It could also be. So the elves could also be Sholto and Darkesh and Valinor could be the gym because they did a workout together with Atlas Creatine Cycle and they're looking in fighting form. Well, let me tell you about Gusto, the unified platform for payroll, benefits and HR built.

Internet communications to people so that dictators and tyrants can't block the Internet. So what are they doing? So the regime is making efforts to neutralize Starlink, is that correct? That's right. When I started this project with a band of rebels in 2022, I went to SpaceX Starlink, bought tons of Starlinks, and we figured out three different routes to smuggle it into the country to get it to the protesters. At the time, there were only nine Starlinks in the country, and now there's thousands. And those Starlinks are the way that these videos that we're all seeing from the protests are reaching the world. Otherwise, now they're using military jammers to block and jam the Starling connections. And luckily, Elon and his team are some of the smartest humans on the planet, so they've figured out how to get around that. Ukraine was a great laboratory for that as well. And when the Starlings went there, it changed the whole dynamic of the war. And I had played a role in making some introductions there. And now what we're seeing is, is the same dynamic in Iran now. There's tens of thousands of Starlinks. They're getting around the jamming. President Trump reached out to Elon, that's in the news yesterday for more help with Starlink. So, you know, this is something, as an industry as Silicon Valley and tech that we should be very proud of. These technologies that we work on are what I call freedom technologies, and they're part of the arsenal of taking down, really, these criminal and terrorist organizations and tyrants that have taken over sovereign nations with nuclear bombs or attempting to get the nuclear bombs. So, you know, these are the technologies that can be used increasingly so to let humans have the freedoms and the democracies that we're so blessed to have in America. You know, I escape.

Excelling. How technical are they? Are you hiring computer scientists? MBAs? Both. Who's thriving? We're hiring largely, think of it as AI researchers. We have a very large quantum team where we hire astrophysicists. No way. And so we're really at the leading edge of these technologies, working side by side with all of our partners. I joke about the fact that I knew Jensen back when he was only worth a couple billion dollars. And he and our companies have been working together on some of these things since like 2017. So we've been at this for a while. I mean, you talk about Mark and Meta. Yeah, we took Llama and working with them translated into something that could be ported onto the International Space Station. Okay. So it became Space Llama, which is. It made for some pretty cool memes. But now on the research side of the International Space Station, there is for the first time a large language model there. So that instead of going through all of these paper manuals every time they need to fix something, they can actually do natural language queries and do all of that. So that's the type of work that we're doing. If you think about it, most commercial tech oriented towards the idea that you're going to be in a data center that has perfect access to energy, perfect access to fiber. It's 24. 7 uptime. When you start dealing with some of the missions that we support, you're at the edge, you're in the desert, you're in space, you're underwater, you have no connectivity. Form factor matters, power matters. We need to take all of this amazing technology and this trillions of dollars in investment and make it useful in those settings. And for that, we build additional tech that is proprietary to us. That combined with theirs really does wonderful things. And we started working with some of the companies that are A16C portcos and discover that there's a lot we were doing there with the companies that were already oriented towards our market. But I know you had been on the show on Friday, they have 1100 companies or more in their portfolio. The vast majority of them are not thinking about these missions, but they're building many building technologies that are highly applicable. Sure.

So I took the strong form view that said you know I really is going to revolutionize everything we need to get as was Allen at the at the leading edge of that we built essentially the largest we're the largest AI provider to the federal government Most of our business is with the government We've been the largest cyber player in the federal space going back now maybe 20 plus years and I've always thought about it as AI and right it's this intersection of AI and cyber AI and space AI and autonomy and that's what we've been trying to build and you know Booz Allen really people think of us as a consulting firm because we, we were one once that's the company that I joined sure but if you look at us now our business is we're in the business of taking leading edge technology and bringing it to government missions Everything from military missions to space to payment systems to public health we're bringing tech into all of that which is why we build these amazing partnerships because.

Person is really excelling. How technical are they? Are you hiring computer scientists? MBAs? Both. Who's thriving? We're hiring largely think of it as AI researchers. We have a very large quantum. Okay, interesting team where we hire astrophysicists. No way. You know, and so we're really at the leading edge of these technologies, working side by side with all of our partners. I. I joke about the fact that I knew Jensen back when he was only worth a couple billion dollars. And he and our companies have been working together on some of these things since like 2017. So we've been at this for a while. I mean, you talk about Mark and Meta. Yeah. We took Llama and working with them translated into something that could be ported onto the International Space Station. Okay. So it became Space Llama, which is made for some pretty cool memes. But now on the research side of the International Space Station, there is for the first time a large language model there. So that instead of going through all of these paper manuals every time they need to fix something, they can actually do natural language queries and do all of that. So that's the type of work that we're doing. If you think about it, most commercial tech. Yeah, it's oriented towards the idea that you're going to be in a data center that has perfect access to energy, perfect access to fiber. It's 24. 7 uptime. When you start dealing with some of the missions that we support. You're at the edge, you're in the desert, you're in space, you're underwater, you have no connectivity. Form factor matters. Power matters. We need to take all of these amazing technology and these trillions of dollars in investment and make it useful in those settings. And for that, we build additional tech that is proprietary to us that combined with theirs, really does wonderful things. And we started working with some of the companies that are a 16C. Yeah. Port Coast. And discover that, you know, there's a lot we were doing there for the. With the companies that were already organ.

Five coated. I see multiple journalists on the horizon. Standby. Uav online. Glaze. Double glaze. Triple glaze. Double kill. 5 kill. Team deathmatch. We are experts. Triple blaze. Let's just roll. Right. Market clearing order inbound. Come get. You're surrounded by journalists. All cube position. Strike 1. Strike 2, Activate. Go, go. The retriever mod. Market clearing order inbound. Vibe put it. I'll see more journalists on the horizon. And. You're watching TVPN today is Tuesday, January 13, 2026. We are live from the TVPN UltraDome. Technology, the fortress of finance, the capital. That's correct, Bobby. Cosmic. There are eight guests today. We might actually have nine. Let's pull up the linear lineup. We got Shervin Pishevar coming on the show to give us an update on what's happening around the world. Glenn Fogel, Horatio from Booz Allen's coming on the show. We're talking about AI in the enterprise in the consulting world. JD Ross is coming back for with coverage. We got some news there. Sandstone has some fundraising news. Our land of lightning round is going to be popping off and then we're capping it off with Scott Nolan in person, breaking down, dropping a truth nuke on the state of nuclear power. Don't forget about Bob Slaughter. Bob Slaughter, that's a good name. We're excited to talk about that lightning round as well. Looking forward to that. We're going to tell you about ramp.com time is money save. Both easy to use, corporate cards, bill pay, accounting and a whole lot more all in one place. And of course, for those who might have forgotten, our Linear lineup is of course created by Linear, the system for modern software development. Linear is a purpose built tool for planning and building products. Everyone wants to know, did John get a haircut? Yes. Yeah, I did yesterday. Cleaned it up a little bit. It's getting wild. There's some, some length still. We'll see if we like it. Anyway, I think Siri needs an app. I think that that's under discussed. The news is that Apple and Google have a deal. We talked to Ben Thompson about it yesterday. Billion doll, Apple to Google. Now my real hot take is that I think it's going to flip at some point and I think Google or someone else is going to pay Apple to route LLM queries to them. Because with the universal commerce protocol, agentic commerce protocol, with ads and LLM responses, there's going to be a whole bunch of moments where an LLM query is actually profitable. And on average, I think they will Be profitable. I think the price of inference will continue to decline and the value of each query, the monetization of each query will increase until there's a flippening. And then all of a sudden, every LLM query that's generated is on net across the entire. Across the entire category, generating profit instead of generating losses, which is what's happening right now. Of course, just like with Google, when you search for how old is Leonardo DiCaprio or something, they're not making a lot of money on that. They're not running a lot of ads on that. But when you go to search for insurance or something like that, they. They charge a pretty penny for those ads. And I think the same thing will be true for LMS broadly. It is kind of interesting. They don't. I just looked it up. They don't run ads on how old is Leonardo DiCaprio. You'd think that they could figure out some type of ad to serve. Yeah. You think Brian Johnson would be buying. An ad like some peptide because you're. Like, oh, he looks great. And what's he doing? Oh, and then look like Leo. He's 51. Leo was born in the 70s. Hmm. Which is crazy when you say it like that. Yeah. Well, he's looking great. He was at the. He was at the Golden Globes having fun, celebrating his movie. Goofing around. Yeah, yeah, he was goofing around. He was caught on, like some mic looking at somebody. I don't know. I saw some random clips anyway, but the real. The real thing I wanted to debate with Tyler was I was arguing that Siri needs an app. It's crazy. Siri came out in 2010, hasn't had an app for its entire life. I mean, it actually started as Nap back in the day. It was Siri is from the Stanford Institute of Research and Intelligence or something like that. Yeah. What was it? It was like a $200 million acquisition. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, seems like good value. Before we keep digging into Siri, let me tell you about Vanta Automate Compliance and Security. Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform. So it was an app that you needed to install on your iPhone. There were a few of these speech recognition apps that you could go and you'd open up the app, click a button. Siri, because I think the fact that they were on the west coast, was able to get the deepest integration in Apple, sort of win the home button over time, win the Siri button. And eventually they teamed up and actually. Oh, I have triggered Siri on my Mac. There you go. Fantastic. And so eventually Siri gets baked into the operating system level and the rest is history. The first couple years are pretty good. People are excited. It was somewhat magical to be able to just press a button, ask for the weather, ask for a stock chart, ask for what's on your calendar, dictate a text message. A lot of that was pretty great. The user numbers are interesting. I don't know how much they disclosed. This is sort of a rumored number, but there's the. The estimates are around 500 million active Siri users globally, which is huge. Absolutely massive. But there's 1.5 billion iPhone users. So having only a third of your user base use your AI feature seems a little bit low if that's the case. Ian Mackey says in the X chat Siri was born out of sri. Sri, yeah, yeah. Sri, which I believe is Stanford, the Stanford Research Institute or something like that. I think that's where SRI comes from. But they're clearly not getting enough out of it. People aren't using it. Everyone in Texas. I never use Siri. Obviously some people do. Well, some people are using it now because we're saying. Siri said we triggered it. We triggered it. Sorry about that too. Anyway, so obviously juicing it up with an LLM like Gemini makes a ton of sense. Of course, Gemini is a sponsor of this show, Gemini 3 Pro. It's Google's most intelligent model yet. They got state of the art reasoning, next level vibe coding, a deep multimodal understanding. But this deal between Google and Apple makes a ton of sense for a few reasons. Google's actually profitable, has the money. They don't need to take a huge amount of cash from Apple. They can give them sort of a deal on it because it's really fun. Ben kept throwing around big numbers yesterday. Like, let's be honest, we're in tactics. It's not a lot of money. Yeah. And it's funny, it's actually true. It ramped up because at first it was the $30,000 DaVinci Resolve, the Blackmagic Ursa immersive camera. That's $30,000. He's like, that's nothing. You just put those up. And that's true for a tech company. And he was like, you know, Apple's paying Google a billion dollars. That's nothing. It's like they're both nothing. Yeah, the whole thing with The Alphabet's. A $4 trillion company. Now the live, the infrastructure, the hardware to do a live Apple Vision Pro broadcast being $30,000 or something in that range is like the fact that they could copy and paste that around every stadium and suddenly have like a. Probably a. A. I imagine they could scale that to hundreds of millions of dollars of like. You think so pay per view and stuff? Yeah, yeah. Not even pay per view, but just a subscription. It's like, even just selling headsets. I mean, the headset's $3,500. Yeah. You only need to sell 10 headsets to offset the price of one immersive camera. Like you should be able to do that anyway. We covered the Apple Vision Pro in detail yesterday. Ben Thompson joined the stream. You should go check out the video if you haven't watched that. And he actually gave us a shout out. He mentioned his appearance in the Stratechary Daily Update today, which was very fun. But so my take is that I think over time this will flip. And I think over time, Google will be paying Apple for all of the LLM routing that happens because Google will be monetizing those queries. You will go to Siri and you will say, what's the weather? And Gemini under the hood will tell you the weather. And they probably won't monetize that very well. But then every once in a while, you'll say, hey, Gemini, order me a new tv. And it'll say, what size do you want? And it'll just order me rain Rainmaker. Yeah, yeah, change the weather. And they will get either an affiliate fee or a transaction fee, or there will be an ad that's placed in the stream of content that comes back. And I would imagine that right now Apple's saying, don't do any of those ads. Don't monetize these queries. But over time, I imagine that they will. But the big thing that I wanted to discuss with Tyler, he was fighting me on this. He says that Siri does not need an app. I think that Siri will need an app. I think that the LLM chat interface is so dominant at this point that everyone has the experience of going back and forth, forth asynchronously. Like it's chatting to a helpful assistant. Like you're texting with a friend. You want to be able to scroll up and see. Yeah. If you think about it, be very annoying. If you had a real life assistant and they were like, you can only call me. Well, I won't. Tyler, explain. Explain your position. So it's not that. Oh, no, you flashbanged him, hit him. So he's trying to help you out, John. Opinion denied. Tyler Opinion denied. We have a flashback now on the stream. What good timing. So, Tyler, once the flashbang wears off, please tell us. Okay, so it's not that I disagree. I'm not like anti app. It's just like the fifth most important thing that they need to do. Okay. Like, I don't care. Like, okay, would you rather have the same Siri but there's also an app or a new Siri? There's no app. It's a better model. Like, obviously you're picking the latter. Yeah, you're picking the better model. But what I'm saying is that as soon as you integrate a better model that has more, he's going to flashbang again. I'm too powerful. I'm watching this. So as soon as you have deeper responses and more back and forth and more knowledge retrieval, Siri has. They had Wolfram Alpha integration. I think they had a Wikipedia integration for a little bit, but it was more just like pulling up a Wikipedia snippet and then you would either open that. If you want to go deeper, you would open that webpage in Safari and look at the actual Wikipedia. Now there is new context and new content that's being created on the fly by these models because you can ask questions that don't exist in a single Wikipedia page. Gemini under the hood in Siri will instantiate that for you, give you those paragraphs and you might not be able to read through all of that in one screen time session. You might get a text message, need to answer it. You might get a phone call. You might have to put your phone down to keep doing whatever you're doing and you want to come back to it. And so yes, you could just say your prompt again and reinstantiate it all. But that takes time. These models are slow, especially if you're firing off a deep research report. Yeah, I mean, like, yes, like these are. I agree that these are important things, but these are like far from the most important thing. I could just say, okay, if I'm asking about chips, yesterday we have this long conversation and then I say, okay, yesterday we were talking about chips. Let's continue that conversation. That's that whole thing solved now. Yes, so. So that is a. That would be amazing. But the current chat apps don't even have that functionality. If you go to a new chat. Box could very easily implement that. There are on all the. Okay. On Claude on chat, you can search through your past chats. Do you know how bad the searches the search is? Not power. It's not. It's not the search. It's not that good. Good. It's not that good. Okay, well they can. It's not, it's not actually an LLM query. It's not, it's not just. You're talking about something like you're talking with a friend. You have to use keywords again. You're back in like traditional search world. You don't just go to the same empty box and say, hey, remember when we were talking about the fall of the Roman Empire? Re. Pull that, pull all that up. It doesn't do that. Okay, sure, but that's. I don't think that's that hard to implement. You just put the embedding models. But we're talking about Siri here. It can barely pull up the weather. Like we're going from. We're going from like a D tier product to now we're baking in a new model Gemini. Yeah, but it's going to take it to like B. The implementation of the metal of the model is way more important than if the app works. If I can search through it correctly. Yeah. The implementation of the model is not a trivial thing. You have to get a lot of things correct. What do you mean? What about it? You mean the APIs and the hooks and the tools that it will be able to use within the iOS ecosystem? Yeah. For it to be smooth, for it to be a good product, it has to be fast. That are more important than being able to search through yesterday's metrics. Yes, yes. And I think that's why the language is Gemini derived models, Gemini distilled models. Because they do want to be able to run something that's like Gemini but on device. And obviously they have great hardware for that. Apple Silicon. And then also they've actually built out really solid APIs across the entire iOS stack since they have that shortcut functionality which is woefully underutilized. But that was initially designed to be working with. It was initially designed to plug into Siri. So you should be able to order an Uber with Siri or order DoorDash with Siri. All of that didn't really take off in terms of Siri usage, but the APIs are there, so I think the implementation should be fairly simple. Or do you think they need some sort of RL environment? I don't know. I mean, it's just like. So, okay, if you're doing a deep research, are you even like, are we even sure that that is. Do you want to be using Siri for that? Like, maybe it's just better to do it. Whenever I do Deep Research, I never do it on the app. I'm always on like my laptop. Nerd alert. Because it's just like way more information dense. There's a bunch of links that I want to click on in order to do that on the app. People definitely fire off Deep Research on their phone. Maybe they go read them later on their laptop. But we live in a mobile first world and that's the Apple customer base. Siri customers are going to ask long questions that get long answers and they're going to want to come back to those from time to time. And where else will they do that other than an app with the neatly organized? Also, you can't even remember. Part of what's cool about these apps is that if I pull out the sidebar, I can scroll through and I can remember, oh, wow. I was looking at, you know, the NBA's history and, you know, their attendance over different. I don't even remember firing this off. When did I ask about this? But like I did and now I can go back and enjoy the fruits of its labor and I can enjoy it. Yeah. But I think there's so many more things that are important. Like, okay, even if. Okay, so they're using Gemini. Yeah. Like what would you rather have? Would you rather have Gemini 2.5 and an app or Gemini 3 and no app? It's not a trade off. They're getting the best Gemini, obviously. Okay, clearly. And then also the app is coming. That's what I'm saying. Apple is bad at implementing AI. Yes. Do you agree with that? They have been to date, yes. Okay. Yeah. No one debates that Apple intelligence was sort of botched. So I think there is definitely a case to be made that they need to prioritize certain things and the implementation of the actual model. Like them using the best model. That's going to be fast. It's going to like maybe on Siri, people are just having fairly short responses. You don't want paragraph and paragraphs unless you ask for it. Okay. Stuff like this is, I think much more important than having specific app. Yes. And I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, truthfully, developing the type of app that I'm discussing about Siri, like it should be able to be one shot by cloud code. It's super simple. Right, let's pull up. But what are the probability that you think an app comes out this year for Siri? Yes, I think it's probably pretty high. So what's wrong with my logic then? No, I agree with you. You agree with me? I'm not dissing you. Someone in the chat said they already have a Siri app intern. Oh, testing. No idea if that's true. Okay, wait. I want to move on to whatever you want to say, but first I want to tell you about Fin AI, the number one AI agent for customer service. If you want AI to handle your customer support, go to Fin AI. Okay, let me say one more. Yes. Okay, so I'm just saying, like I'm. About to flashbang you. Okay, if you're like writing this, who's the audience? Like Apple, right? You want to make a change? Yeah, maybe. Okay, so it's like Ben Thompson comes on yesterday. All I'm saying is that is that is that I'm excited for. I'm excited to be able to access Gemini with a button. I feel like that's what this deal is giving me. Yeah, that's nothing to do with an app. But also after I access Gemini with this button that trigger flashbang, then I want to be able to see my list. Lambda Lambda is the superintelligence cloud building AI supercomputers for training and inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. Wait, you have a sound cue for Lambda now? Yes, I do. Pull up this clip from Gary Tan testifying in the Senate. Okay. Okay, let's see about who here actually uses Siri. I personally do not because I know that it does not have the cutting edge technology that I don't get along well with her. Yeah, Exactly. Anthropic or OpenAI or many other American labs could provide. And imagine if Apple opened it up so that similar to when you open Windows, you have to choose a browser. What if you choose your AI agent? Then there are a billion consumers in the world who would suddenly have access to not just one self preference Siri, but a variety of American labs. And that would open up investment, that would open up prosperity. I like this. The Trupo with the end card. When is that from? Is that recent? Ian is on an absolute tear. Let's see. Thank you, Ian. He says Apple's currently hiring 300 Siri focused roles. They're going big, they're going to do everything thing. You don't think one of those is an app developer? Okay, no, let me just finish this. Okay, so you think that's intentional? You think that's intentional? Like you know, kind of a reference to the movie 300. Their last stand against against the 10,000 ChatGPT employees. I will let you respond, but first I'm going to tell you about graphite.dev code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub hit ship higher quality software faster. That's right. Continue. Okay, okay. So Ben Thompson came on yesterday and he said he wants one thing. Okay, he doesn't to change the Apple Vision Pro. He doesn't want, oh, a new productivity feature or oh, I want to be able to FaceTime my friend while watching the NBA game. All he wants is to edit. To remove all the edits from the NBA game. Yes, yes, yes. You have to choose one thing. You have priority. Don't have one thing. So if the audience is Apple, like, what I want them to know is like, you guys need to pick the right model, you need to implement it. Well, it's not. I don't care about the app. Okay, that's like way later. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, I hear you. I think that makes some sense, but I don't think it's as much of a trade off as you think it is. I mean, they did just for Apple Intelligence, they did like six different things. They had like the, the generation and they were not. They had a whole bunch of different things. Visual intelligence, they've had a variety of products. None of them really hit exactly one that was good. They need to choose one thing. That's good. One that was good. I don't know, but I'm ready to move the goal posts. Ready to move the goalposts. We have the goalposts. So my new definition for Apple AGI, Apple Intelligence, Apple Superintelligence, Apple Super Intelligence. It's just a functioning search function feature in imessage. That would be very good. That's AGI for Apple. That's asi. No, my definition is I want to be able to go to the new Siri. And so I got an iPad and the iPad just accidentally installed like every app that I've ever installed on my phone on the iPad, which wouldn't be that bad because on my phone I have one home screen and then I have a second screen and then the third screen is just the app library and it just has a search box. And then the app library actually very intelligently organizes things into productivity, utilities, entertainment. It does all that for me. I don't need to organize it. I don't choose where things go. It knows if it's a creativity app or travel app or a news app, it puts it in its correct category. I don't need to manage that. So it's great. I have a whole bunch of apps on my Phone. And they're all organized for some reason. The iPad was just like, let's do pages and pages and pages of all these apps on actual screens. And there's no rhyme or reason to them. And I want to organize them all into a logical format, but I think I'd have to go and at least remove all of them from home screen one at a time. It would be like thousands of taps to get rid of all of them. Probably take me like 10 to 20 minutes. It's annoying. It's not going to happen. I just won't do it. But it's a good test of agentic AI to be able to with a single prompt, one shot. Hey, clean up the whole desktop. Because we're seeing that today with Claude Cowork. Cowork is the name. Not co worker. Claude. Co worker. Okay, Claude Cowork. A lot of people are having fun installing Claude Cowork and then. And then saying, hey, go clean up my desktop. Organize it now. Who knows if this is valuable? I don't think you care about clean desktops. I really don't. I did see a post. Somebody was like, wow, Claude Cowork cleaned up all the files on my desktop. This is gonna change everything. And I was thinking, you know, every once in a while I'll clean up the files on my desktop. But it's never once changed everything. Yeah, no. Usually I just make a folder with. Like, archive and in fact, I just drag everything. I don't find it. And I do that again and again and again. Like, if it was really important, we'd probably have somebody on the team that was like, just really good at organizing desktops. Sure. And now we do cloud cowork. Yeah, I guess. Organizing. But I want to be able to. But I do think, as trivial as that example is, I think it's a good example of what an agentic system should be able to do if it has the proper hooks into the OS layer. So Claude Cowork can do it on desktop. What's the iOS equivalent of that? It's gotta be Apple Intelligence. They have their walled garden. The walls are staying up. They're not letting Claude Cowork go around your iOS installation and hook into all your different local APIs. That's the domain of Apple Intelligence. That's the domain of Siri. Siri is now powered by Gemini. It should be able to do this. Let's see if that's what they launch and that's the model implementation that you're talking about. And that's what I agree with you on, I just think there will also be an app. Okay. Yeah, but like the former is much more important than the latter. Yes, I agree. We're moving on. The Terminator called all of this back in November. So anyways, this isn't even new news, but we should. It's now official. We gotta give it up for Mark Gurman, though. German athlete Scoop Germinators back on the calendar. We're going to have him on. Can't wait to catch up because John Ternus is in the news too. We'll get to that. First, let me tell you about Sentry. Sentry shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps working. 150K. That's a lot. That's a lot. Apple ran a blind test of Frontier models and picked Gemini. Interesting. And there's this old photo of the Tim Cook meeting with Sundar Pichai from Google in a dimly lit. Cafe or. Restaurant, probably in Cupertino or Menlo park somewhere. I was hoping they would do a jersey swap at this event because of course, Mark Zuckerberg and Jensen Wong swapped jerseys at one point. Tim Cook very clearly mewing here. I think they're both mewing at each other. They're both mewing at each other. They're just having a mew off. Yes. That's how they really. They're not even talking. They want to do business together anyway. Let's go over to the New York Times. The New York Times has a new profile. Specifically Callie Huang and Tripp Mickle. John Ternus, a low profile but influential executive at Apple, could be next in line to replace the company's longtime chief executive, Tim Cook, if he steps aside, they say. Around 2018, Apple considered adding a tiny laser to its iPhones. The part would allow consumers to take better photos, more accurately map their surroundings, and use new augmented reality features. But it would also cost Apple about $40 per device, cutting into the company's profits. John Ternus, Apple's head of hardware engineering, suggested adding the component to only the more expensive pro models of the iPhone, said two people familiar with the discussions. Those devices, Mr. Turner's reason, tended to be purchased by Apple's most loyal soldiers, hostages who would be excited about new technology. Average consumers, on the other hand, probably wouldn't care. Threading the needle between adding new bells and whistles. Let's give it up for bells and whistles to Apple's products. While watching the Bottom Line has defined the careful low profile style of Mr. Turn Us. And we have to take a minute to talk about the nominative determinism of turn us around. Turn us around. Mr. Turn us around. Our AI strategy is failing. We need somebody to turn us around. Mr. Turnus could be the man for the job. He joined Apple in 2001. He is now considered by some company insiders to be the front runner to replace Tim cook, Apple's longtime CEO. Apple last year began accelerating its planning for Mr. Cook's succession, according to three people. Mr. Cook, 65, has told senior leaders that he is tired and would like to reduce his workload. Should he step down, Mr. Cook is likely to become the chairman of Apple's board. Oh, interesting. They're also doing some numerology. Turnus is 50 and that's the same age that Cook, that Tim Cook was. He took over for Steve Jobs in 2011. We see you. We see you. New York Times. Interesting. Doing the hard hitting analysis. Like Mr. Cook, Mr. Ternus is known for his attention to detail and his knowledge of Apple's vast supply network. Both men are also considered even tempered collaborators, capable of navigating the bureaucracy of one of the world's wealthiest companies without ruffling feathers. His rising profile caused debate amongst Apple alumni and rank and file employees about whether he would lead like Tim Cook, who succeeded by making the company more predictable and incremental, or Mr. Jobs, who laid the foundation for the company's success with risky bets and visionary. Venturi in the chat says Apple needs a social network. Do they have it already? I feel like imessage is a social network. Imessage, ping, if you remember ping, they had a social network that they acquired I believe from Jeff Ralston, the former YC partner. But it was like Spotify where you could see where other people are watching playing. You'd go on Apple music or it wasn't called Apple music back then, it was Ping, which was linked to itunes. You could see what other people are listening to and then every artist would have a profile where they could share content. It was a very music driven social network. Follow me on ping, Follow me on ping. Ping me, ping me. Never really took off though. Other than that. I think imessage is a very, very strong social network. And I mean certainly If Meta owns WhatsApp and includes that in the family of apps and messaging is obviously a huge driver of social networking activity these days. People sharing content through there. Snapchat is a messenger, Instagram is. You know, you look and you see there's more shares on this reel than likes because people are sending it to each other. That's what people do. That's how people do it. Yeah. And I think, I think the people have long had the idea to build a family focused social network and I don't think they'll ever be successful because group chats on imessage function totally do that very well. You just can't keep up with Apple on that. Yeah. Before we move on figma, figma make isn't your average vibe coding tool. It lives in Figma so outputs look good, feel real and stay connected to how teams build create code back prototypes and apps fast. Mr. Turnus Rising profile. Sorry, you got that. If you want to make an iPhone every year, Turnus is your guy, says Cameron Rogers. But, but how much should we read into this? Because they already do make an iPhone every year. But. Well, yeah, but it's. But it says some. I mean obviously this is. We don't have the context here, but. We didn't say was if you want to build the next, you want to build the future. Yeah, the futuristic. You know, if you want to get the Apple car project off the ground, turn us is your guy. He said if you want to make an Apple an iPhone every year like clockwork, keep the trains running on time at Apple, Turnus is your guy. Yeah, people, we read that other quote about Ternus where they were saying like has he done any hard, has he made any hard decisions? No. And someone was clearly taking shots at him. It feels like there's a little bit of like politics going on over at Apple, people jockeying for the next role. But whatever's happening with John Ternus clearly is working because it's one profile after another. And he's the name I keep hearing more and more certainly above Craig Federighi, Eddie Q. Some of the other folks who are sort of household names in the Apple ecosystem, they're not getting profiles like this written. Everyone needs to meet and learn about John Ternus. So Apple's plans for artificial intelligence are also a big question. Is he AGI pilled? Is he asi pilled? What are his timelines? Is he a doomer? We gotta get to the bottom of this. Hopefully the. Hopefully the New York Times is asking the hard questions. We will find out. While other giant technology companies have spent tens of billions of dollars developing AI, Apple has largely been on the sidelines and it pushed off making major changes to its products with new AI technology. It'll be up to Apple's board of directors to decide who will eventually replace Mr. Cook. Who also sits on the board. The rest of the company's eight board members did not respond to requests for comments, and Apple declined to make Mr. Turnus available for an interview. They couldn't get the New York Times in the room with Ternus. The Financial Times and Bloomberg previously reported on aspects of this. So he's the youngest member of Apple's executive leadership team. Overnight success, Getting some young blood in there. Sort of a Doge situation, I guess. The boys, the Turnus child at the. At the helm. No, he's 50. It would be Apple's first chief executive in three decades to have spent his career working in hardware. Unlike some of the other candidates to replace Mr. Cook, Mr. Turnus has worked on many of Apple's devices, as well as the global operations that manufacture those products. He would take over as a relative unknown outside of Apple. Inside, the company is known more for maintaining products than developing new ones, according to six former employees. And Mr. Ternus, who has been an engineer in Silicon Valley for all of his adult life, has limited exposure to the policy issues and political responses. That. Can be viewed as a knock. Right. Like, he's not just given Apple's history as an innovator, but like, where, you know, what's the highest leverage place that he can spend his time, probably focusing on the products that are already hits that have real product market fit. The political responsibilities can't be that complicated. I mean, he knows the supply chain. All he has to do is make a solid gold iPhone, Send 1 to 1600 and call it a day, make sure it's very ornate and you'll be good to go. He's a California native. He received a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Pennsylvania, where he was on the varsity swim team. For a senior project, he designed a device that allowed quadriplegics Pellegics to use head motions to control a mechanical feeding arm. Wow. It's like neuralink back in the day. In the four years after his graduation from Penn, he designed headsets and other products at a virtual reality startup. Wow. Throwback. Then he joined Apple first working on screens for Macs as the company transitioned away from the colorful imac. I'd love to. I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk to Mr. Turnus at some point, but I would love to know what people's VR timelines were. When he was working on VR in. The 90s, they were like 10 years max. 10 years max in the next decade, for sure. He was a man of the people. Adding that the decision to Sit with his team likely helped Mr. Ternus manage and motivate his staff. When he was working at Apple. Their team, the team he was on moved office floors, switching from a closed office plan to a mostly open seating with few offices. When he was promoted, Mr. Turnus had the option to move into one of those fancy offices. But he said, no, I'm sitting with the crew, I'm riding with my boys, I'm hanging out in the open plant, which is, you know, tells you a lot about who he is as a person. In 2005, Mr. Turnus had been promoted to lead Apple's hardware engineering team for the Imax as it made the G5 series, which helped inspire. Who helped. Michael Hillman hired Mr. Ternus and worked with him at Apple for more than a decade. That team was working on using magnets to hold the computer's glass screen in place. Interesting. The technique was unusual for its time and faced skepticism, but Mr. Turnis still pushed for it. When presented with such an out of the box idea, he would champion it, said Mr. Seifert. Mr. Turnus spent extended periods of time working with manufacturers in Asia. He traveled between the continent and Silicon Valley and learned how difficult it could be to have a manufacturing supplier deliver on Apple's design expectations. Apple also paired Mr. Turnus with an external consultant to advise him on leadership. He got a leadership coach. He became a key lieutenant of Dan Riccio, his predecessor as Apple's head of Hardware. By 2013, his role had expanded to include overseeing the Mac and iPad teams. In recent years, he has shouldered more responsibility for updates to Apple's products. Spearheaded the iPhone Air, which was released last year with a new slim design and was a key leader in Apple's transition from using intel chips to silicon to Apple silicon. And of course the iPhone air. Not a really hot seller, apparently not doing that well financially necessarily. But from an engineering perspective, people are very excited. Apple and employee friend of mine said he got the iPhone air. It was the worst iPhone he's ever bought. Really? Wow. Absolutely brutal. Well, before we talk more about the iPhone air, let me tell you about label box delivering you the highest quality data for frontier AI. Get in the box. The label box. Apple, you know, you need some training data. You know, you need some high quality training data for your frontier AI. You need some data to train on Siri get on label box. Get in the box. So the iPhone air, obviously it even might, you know, reviews are mixed, reviews are not great. Some people complain about different things, some people love it, but it hasn't Been flying off the shelves. But when you see the X ray. Remember that story, you know, of the founder who said, this is the strongest iPhone ever made. Nobody can possibly break this. It's impossible. What happened next. And then it was quickly broken in half by a Gundam founder. That was an iPhone. X Smashed. Smashed. But you can imagine the innovation that went into making the iPhone air so small. Could be used for a foldable phone, which was probably coming. Could be used for more miniaturization if they do some sort of lapel pin or something else. They clearly have packed a lot of power into such a small form factor. So is he a nice guy? Yes, says Mr. Rogers. He is a nice guy. He's someone you want to hang out with. Everyone loves him because he's great. And here's the quote that lives in infamy. Has he made any hard decisions? No. Are there hard problems he's solved in hardware? No. Rogers. How can you say he's never made a hard decision? Says Cameron Rogers, who worked on product and software engineering management at Apple from 2005 to 2022. Cameron Rogers, hater of the year right here. Who is this person? But Cameron Rogers is not. Clearly not pulling out the glaze for Turnus. It's absolutely brutal to say. Yeah. Remember the same guy who said earlier in the article, if you want to make an iPhone every year, Turnus is your guy? Yeah, you got it. Which again, I read that and I was like, okay, that sounds good. Surface level, Cameron Rogers. Apple does make an iPhone every year. We should have Cameron on the show. The hater in chief, Chief hating officer. It's crazy. I mean, certainly you cannot be at Apple for two decades and never have made a single hard decision or solved a hard problem in hardware. Like that Seems impossible. It's funny, there is a hardware engineer at Apple today named Cameron Rogers, but. It is different person. Different. Okay, okay. Well. In a 2024 commencement speech at Penn's engineering school, Mr. Turnis told graduating students that in the future they would not of specific projects, but of the journey to make them all happen. Quote now while you're on that journey, there's going to be many times in your career where you have to take on something new. He said. And sometimes you might wonder whether or not you can actually do it. Giving a little inspirational talk at Penn's engineering school commencement speech. Very fun. Well, good luck to him. I don't know. I think he can figure it out. I would be shocked if he's really never solved a hard problem. Seems like he has some beef with his camera fellow and I don't know, we'll see Cameron Rogers. Maybe Ternus needs to respond, drop a diss track. I don't know. I would love to see that. Public.com, investing for those who take it seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries and more, all with amazing customer service. OpenAI they've acquired Torch. It's a healthcare startup that unifies lab results, medications and visit recordings. Bringing this together with ChatGPT Health opens up a new way to understand and manage your health, says OpenAI. Okay, founders of Torch. Torch was a four person company oh small the co founder of Torch Ilya I believe one of the other founders previously built Forward Ilya was also an early Uber gm so trained at the Travis Kalanick school of Mogging. Anyways, forward little backstory healthcare startup founded in 2016. They wanted to rebuild the healthcare system from the ground up. Sounds, sounds cool. They originally were trying to do this kind of like the general belief was that healthcare was too reactive instead of proactive. Right. You go to the doctor when you're sick, not to just kind of generally be healthy. They had an app. They wanted the, the sort of physical spaces to feel like Apple Stores. Right. They wanted this Apple like experience for health subscription only model. They didn't accept insurance initially. Bunch of folks founders fund Khosla, Eric Schmidt, a bunch of legends were in the round. 2018-2022 they expanded to dozens of locations. They had body scanners, real time blood work, a bunch of different software that they had built out. 2021 reached a valuation of over 1 billion, raised a quarter billion dollar ish series D round at this point. From that point on they sort of pivoted to focusing on this thing called care pods and these were like trying to be autonomous like AI driven medical kiosks. So honestly probably right idea, maybe a little bit too early. Eventually in 2024 they shut down very abruptly. It sounds like they basically just ran out of money. Came back very quickly with Torch and now they are of course being rolled into OpenAI. So you can I think the right way to read into this. OpenAI just launched OpenAI Health. They're now acquiring Torch. I would assume that they want, they want all of your health data. Like they really want to help you with your health, they want your blood. They'Re out for blood. They want your blood, they want your blood work. Maybe they could say like hey this month instead of paying, you could be a blood boy. For us our researchers are working really hard. I need your blood. I'm ready to upload. Upload me. Just let me know. Let me know. I'm gonna read the message that Torch wrote. Torch says everyone deserves the best answers modern medicine can give them. And yet we've all people close to our hearts who didn't get the answers they needed about their health. We have more data about our bodies than ever before, but it's never been harder to bring it all together. Patients see only a fraction of their own records, while clinicians have little, have too little time to parse the growing stream of data patients bringing in from wearables and consumer health companies. You know, like function, etc. AI is the most important new tool we've had in decades for turning the chaos into clarity. But AI can't help you if your health data is scattered across four hospitals, two labs, seven apps and three web portals. We started Torch to build a medical memory for AI, unifying scattered records into a context engine that helps you see the full picture, connect the dots, and make sure nothing important gets lost in the noise again. Mike has a little life hack here. If you're an early stage AI founder, rename yourself to Ilia and get an M and A offer. Just crazy enough to work. I like it. Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds online, in, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. Every time I see one of these new features drop from Claude, cowork, or OpenAI ChatGPT Health, it just feels like the Siri thing is bigger and bigger. Back to what Tyler was saying about implementation of the model, because Apple has Apple Health, there's a whole promise there of what Apple Health as an app can do. You want that to be AI enabled, so they need to update that as well. And there's so many different, okay, shopping, agentic commerce. Like there's Apple Pay, is Apple Pay integrated with Siri and the new AI function. So they really do need to go around and update all over the place if they want to stay. You know, they have some dominant positions carved out. But every AI company is trying to eat off Apple's play and as much as they can. But there's really, really strong lock in to most of the Apple ecosystem. So it's not over if they don't move right now and get the app out and get updates out. But it's very clear that If Apple or ChatGPT Health is rolling out, it's going to take time for people to ramp up, start integrating things, start using it. But if that behavior develops and it's another two, three years until Apple responds. Yeah, they are going to be a laggard in that category. There's a Claude cowork reaction thread going on from Zvi Mushowitz. Lots of people kind of mix reviews. Eleanor Berger says research preview. This is the future, not the present. For now, if you want a local agent, Claude code is still the best you can recommend, even if it's for non coding tasks. Some people are saying it's buggy. Have you had a chance to try it out? Tyler, can you install Claude coworker today? Yeah, I mean so I downloaded it yesterday, but it's kind of. We talked about this earlier in the gym. Like I actually don't know what to do with it because I'm like already technical, already have cloud code. Yeah. My sense is that this is basically just a. We get it. My sense is it's basically just a UI wrapper. Seriously, we get it. We get it. You're technical. Hit him with the flashbang. It's too powerful. No. Okay. But it's like a UI wrapper around Claude code. So it's like not providing maybe an insane amount of brand new functionality. I mean there's a huge swath of consumers who are just never going to really open the terminal. Even if Claude. Even if you go to Claude and say, how do I install Claude code? I heard it's hot. And Claude code says literally just hit command space, bar, type T E R M, hit enter. It'll open the terminal and then copy and paste this line and then tell it what you want. Just like it's ChatGPT or Claude. People still won't do that because it's. Like, oh, what's you need like 15 gigs for it too? Yeah, you do need some space in your hard drive, but that's not a huge issue for most people. Yeah, but it's not fully frictionless. Whereas. Yeah, whereas an app might sort of hold your hand through that a little bit more. And so I'm optimistic about this but I do think that the marketing and the messaging and actually like the thread boy influencers are going to be pretty important here where if you see someone demo something cool with Claude cowork, that's going to be a key to open it up. A lot of people, you know, in the early days of ChatGPT rolling out, a lot of people were sharing prompts. What's a good prompt? You know, prompt engineering, like, oh, you take this prompt and do this because a lot of people need inspiration. It's the same thing with midjourney. Like if you just give someone a blank box and tell them this is an image generator, I'll just say like dog. And then you just give them a picture of a dog and they're like, yeah, that looks like a dog. I could go to Google Images. What's special about it is like, I want it to be my dog and I want it to be fighting Darth Vader and I want it to be in downtown la. And then it creates something that you can't just find on Google Images. The same thing will be true on Claude Cowork. There are tools for just cleaning up your desktop. There's, I think Alfred is one of them. There's a few others that just do automated sort of deterministic cleanup of desktops. But people will eventually be sharing Claude Cowork workflows, prompts, best practices and just giving people the idea, as simple as that sounds. The capability is there, but there's this capability application overhang where you need to actually tell people, hey, this is something that you could use. Claude co work for. Mike says think the position as cowork is actually really sharp. I agree. I think that it's kind of a mouthful Claude co work. But going back to what I was saying last week when, when people, when, when some lab leaders have been talking about the potential of AI, they just say, oh, AI is going to do this, AI is going to do that. Obviously the at least near term reality is humans are going to use AI to do things. And I think anthropic trying to be more human about it and saying like, hey, you're working with this thing. It's not, it's not cloudomating you away. There are people having fun with the claw. The portmanteaus first, before we read through these, let me tell you about Railway Railway simplifies software development, web apps, servers and databases run in one place with scaling, monitoring and security built in. Nir friend of the show says his job. Oh, it got Claudomated away. No one has. No one. I can't believe no one has said this. Not even a single 1000 likes. People are into this. Paula says he hates AI. Oh, he's clodstrophobic. Claudstrophobic. Okay, these are getting a lot of likes, but not exactly belly laughing for me. Yeah, not quite. I'm glad people are having fun. I do think Claude's a funny name and you know, it's yeah, John Palmer. Was really pushing, like, hey, now's the time to rebrand. To rebrand, rename. I mean, a naming exercise can be, you know, a very expansive project, but. But I do think it's probably too late. Wait, Claude is going all the way? Yeah, they've all sort of worked out, I don't know, chatgpt, Bard. In hindsight, Bard was kind of under having a digital. Bard. Bard. Yeah, Bard was funny. But Gemini works. They're building up the brand there and Claude works as well. ChatGPT. Such a mouthful, so such an insane name. So clearly named by a developer, but it just broke through in such a way. And then they did buy chat.com, so it winds up working. Claude, code for the rest of your work. American middle class, desk jockeys watching the asteroid hit the dinosaurs. We will see. We'll see how much this moves productivity, how much this moves gdp. That's the big question for this year is how much will people actually be able to, you know, use this to do the work they do every day? I've been in jobs where organizing desktop files was actually a $1 trillion industry. Yeah, I mean, I have been. I was an intern once, and my job was basically to open up an Excel template every day, copy paste some numbers, sort of make sure all the formulas held. And over the internship, over the couple months, I wrote more and more Visual Basic so that my job went from eight hours on the first day to four hours to eventually it was like 15 minutes. I would just, like get there and just hit a script. I would just click a button and it would just do everything. And that was just with like, normal software now you probably have to. You have to, you know, reality check, so make sure there's no hallucinations. But in general, like, some of these jobs are. Can be automated. The question is, like, if someone uses this to automate their own job, will they just be sitting there watching reels in the small corner? And when their boss comes by, they alt tab, so they're looking, oh, I'm still working really hard. Nothing's been automated. These AI models are slop. I definitely still need my job. Where does the value accrue? Who's reclaiming the value? I mean, we did talk to a friend who was saying that, like, you know, someone who's a. Has some sort of desk job, has been Effectively automated by ChatGPT, but just spends all day golfing now, and the boss doesn't know that the job's been automated because the boss. Yeah, we might see a bull market. And water cooler talk. Ooh, yeah, that's possible. As people automate more and more of their work and just decide to yap. Well, speaking of water, let's go over to Augustus Dirico, the Rainmaker himself. But first let me tell you about Applovin. Profitable advertising made easy with Axon A. Get access to over 1 billion daily active users and grow your business. Today Augustus says I'm AI pilled after seeing what the new grad philosophy major I hired to fly drones from a mountaintop has automated at Rainmaker with Claude. He's very happy. Yeah, we keep asking Tyler, hey, can you automate this? And he says, sorry sir, it's not possible yet. It's not possible yet. I don't believe it. I never said that. He basically said everything. So Boris Czerny who is runs Claude code Run. Claude runs cloud created. Remember he popped over to OpenAI for like two weeks, right? No, that was cursor. Oh, he popped over to cursor. Wait, so he went to cursor, turned and went back to open. Went back to anthropic. Yeah. So he's literally moment last summer, his. Churning in terms of his job. Yes, churning through jobs. Interesting, interesting. Good nominative determinism. Well, how much code did he write to develop Claude co work? He apparently used Claude code entirely and did none of the coding himself. Fantastic. Very, very cool. So he said since we launched COD code we saw people using for all sorts of non coding work. Doing vacation research, building slide decks, cleaning up your email, canceling subscriptions, recovering wedding photos from hard drive, monitoring plant growth, controlling your oven. These use cases are diverse and surprising. The reason is that the underlying cloud agent is the best Agent and Opus 4.5 is the best model. Today we're so excited to introduce Cowork, our first big step towards making Claude code work for all your non coding work. The product is early and raw, similar to what Claude code felt like when it it first launched. And that's the big question, Tyler is Claude code was very bare bones, rough around the edges when it launched. It's now so full functioning that everyone loves it and it's building whole new products. What do they need to add to cowork to make it an even better product? I don't know. I feel like in the app ecosystem, in the chat app ecosystem, the level of value that comes from product design UI UX is still underrated. Obviously no one doubts that the models are great, but if you use the Claude app and you have it, you generate a deep research report or something like that. You click the Play button to have it read it to you. You can't fast forward or rewind. You can't change the speed. And you also, if you close your phone, it just stops playing. So you need to be sort of like touching the phone to keep it working, to keep it open while you listen to this report. And that just feels like, oh, that's like not a good user experience. And ChatGPT has solved that and has some more. They can do background audio and these are all sort of simple APIs in iOS, but it takes time and consideration. You have to decide where the buttons go and what they look like. And Claude code can do a lot of that, but it takes time and someone has to make the decision. My neighbor Murph in the X chat says, I'm interested in Noah no work. Claude cowork Noah no work. I like that something there. That's great. Anyway, MongoDB. Choose a database built for flexibility and scale with best of class embedding models and we rank. MongoDB has what you need to build. What's next? NetCapGirl Sophie says, okay, Claude, take this unstructured data and turn it into dashboards. That will give executives deeper insights into critical business functions. Make no mistakes. Jira Tickets is all reliable because Sophie posts some version of this. Wait, really? Once a day. Once a day? Basically, he's gone viral with the same concept. Wait, but like, has it always been about Claude? No, no, no. It's constantly being repurposed. Playing the hits. You gotta play the hits. Critical business functions. Atlas says Claude. Here is a picture of my crush Claude here is her phone number. Make her my gf. Make no mistakes. That's also his PIN playing. Everyone has their role to play in the post. Singularity Hangout Sesh, turbopuffer, Serverless vector in full text search built from first principles and object storage. Fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. There's a billion dollars inside Opus 4.5 model weights and you just need to type the right Claude code prompts to get them out. Says Frankie. Very true. Lots of opportunity, actually. Knowing how to code is no longer. Juwan says there's no point in learning or doing anything anymore. Just learn English and acquire a good mental model of things. And just type, bro. Just type. Yeah, see, I mean, you have to actually be inspired to come up with something that people want, talk to users or something like that. Claude code is so successful they had to make Claude code not for code, instead of just Claude Claude code not for code, instead of Just Claude. It is funny that there's these opportunities to retool the brand around because. Because we're now three levels deep. There's Anthropic, there's Claude and there's Claude Code and Claude Cowork and you could have just said Claude code and Claude coworker. Now just Claude. It's one thing. It works in the terminal. It also works on your desktop. It's one thing. But it's interesting that Anthropic clearly sees some sort of divide between technical and non technical users that they assume that will persist at least for a reasonable amount of time. Let's see. Introducing Claude Cowork. It's giving an AK47 to a monkey, which is one of my favorite favorite meme images ever. If you scroll up, you'll see the best formats. It's one of the best of all time. Yes, you could definitely do some damage on a computer or in a corporate environment if you really turn it loose on the network. We will see. I'm sure there will be more total just ridiculous mistakes than malicious intent, but it will be interesting. So deja Vu coder goes on to say initially I thought it's computer use, but looks like it's Claude code shaped with more UI UX focused towards non technical people, especially those who have Terminal Rock in. The chat is headed to an interview with Goldman Sachs. One, let's give it up for Goldman Sachs and two, let's all set. And some good luck towards our boy. Yes, Sholto also posted of course because he's involved in this. Oh yes. What else is going on? Yes. Oh, Ramp also has a coding agent. They built their own fax. Herbert shared this. The Tri Ramp engineering team built a coding agent last month called Inspect and it's now dominating our internal use cases. I can't tell you how fun it is to continually have my mind blown by our technical folks. Very, very interesting to actually people are very confused by this but you know, it's a very special team, very special company and so it makes sense in this particular context to build something special. And they also have an Agentix spreadsheet product at this point and they've been having a lot of fun developing new software very quickly all over the place before we move on. CrowdStrike, your business is AI. Their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. And Rune is back to vague posting. He says that the elves have left for Valinor. Please sir, can I have a crumb of context? Just a crumb. The I Require context. Hat goes on Elves, people. We need a hat here. We do. I require context hat. Yes. I don't know exactly what he's referring to. It is a vague post, but we'll have to dig into it. Maybe we'll have to have him back on the show. Well, QT Cash is speculating, saying, given that Rune is likely referencing his own Quern comment talking about the downfall of OpenAI. What does this mean for the future? Quern says, apropos of suskavor. Now, having left OpenAI for good, I've gone back to my thinking about the long term consequences of Altman's coup. And something I began to wonder in 2021 when the news about Anthropic broke. What if the elves have left Middle earth? What if OpenAI has lost its mojo? If so, what would that look like? And how would we know? What's the rot narrative? Interesting. Interesting. Oh, wait. So Zoomer also says he's talking about the California tax proposal. Fed shenanigans. You're misreading the tweet. So the elves could just be our most loyal. And this is the power of vague posting. Yeah, it's interpreted a bunch of different ways. Like sprinkling, you know, some tea leaves. People behind their own. Yes. I mean, regardless, you know, OpenAI. Have they lost their mojo? Certainly not when it comes to vague posting. Tyler, what do you think? Okay, yeah, so there's like the two different ways to look at it, right? It's about California or OpenAI. Yes, but so I think he probably meant it as like, okay, this is bad. California, billionaire California. But like all the news about that has broken like earlier this week. Like all the. Everyone's leaving. Right? It's kind of late to post that. Yeah, but it's a perfect time to post as you kind of see at least the vibes on X, like really hard going against OpenAI Pro. Sure. So I think it's like if someone asks him about it, he's like, oh, it's about the billionaire tax. But you know, subtly, maybe it's actually pointing. It could also. It could also be. So the elves could also be Sholto and Dora. Cash and Valinor could be the gym because they did a workout together with Atlas Creatine Cycle and they're looking in fighting form. Well, let me tell you about Gusto, the unified platform for payroll, benefits and HR built to evolve with modern small and medium sized businesses and the backbone of tbpn. Yes, it is. So there's some, there's some. Oh, we do yes. Let's do it. In the restream waiting room we have shrewd Shervin Pishavar and we will welcome him to the TVP at ultradome. Shervin, how are you doing? Good to see you.

To. To look for. We're beyond the tens of millions. The tens of millions were in the streets in the last couple weeks. It's the biggest, biggest numbers ever. The. The Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi has been calling for people to come in the streets at certain times, and they've been listening. We have an open channel of communications because of Starlink, these freedom technologies, as I call it. I've been working on it since 2010. I had a dinner with the Secretary of State back then, and I said, the last bastion of dictatorship is the router, and we need to be able to use satellites to bring beam Internet communications to people so that dictators and tyrants can't block the Internet. So what are they doing? So the regime is making efforts to neutralize Starlink, is that correct? That's right. I actually, when I started this project with a band of rebels, we, we. In 2022, we went to SpaceX, Starlink, bought tons of Starlinks, and we figured out three different routes to smuggle it into the country to get it to the protesters. At the time, there were only nine Starlinks in the country, and now there's thousands. And those Starlinks are the way that these videos that we're all seeing from the protests are reaching the world. Otherwise now, now they're using military jammers to block and jam the Starlink connections. And luckily, you know, Elon and his team are some of the smartest humans on the planet, so they've figured out how to. How to, you know, get around that. Ukraine was a great laboratory for that as well. And when the Starlings went there, it changed the whole dynamic of the war. And I had played a role in making some introductions there. And now what we're seeing is the same dynamic in Iran now there's tens of thousands of Starlinks that are getting around the jamming. President Trump reached out to Elon, that's in the news yesterday, for more help with Starlink. So this is something, as an industry as Silicon Valley and tech that we should be very proud of. These technologies that we work on are what I call freedom technologies, and they're part of the arsenal of taking down, really, these criminal and terrorist organizations and tyrants that have taken over sovereign nations with nuclear bombs or attempting to get the nuclear bombs. So, you know, these are the technologies that can be used increasingly so to let humans have the freedoms and the democracies that we're so blessed to have in America.

Working Claude code for the rest of your work. American middle class, desk jockeys, watching the asteroid hit the dinosaurs. We will see. We'll see how much this moves productivity, how much this moves gdp. That's the big question for this year is how much will people actually be able to, you know, use this to do the work they do every day? I've been in jobs where organizing desktop files was actually a $1 trillion industry. Yeah, I mean, I have been. I was an intern once, and my job was basically to open up an Excel template every day, copy paste some numbers, sort of make sure all the formulas held. And over the internship, over the couple months, I wrote more and more Visual Basic so that my job went from eight hours on the first day to four hours to eventually it was like 15 minutes. I would just, like, get there and just hit a script. I would just click a button and it would just do everything. And that was just with, like, normal software. Now you probably have to. You have to, you know, reality check. So make sure there's no hallucinations. But in general, like, some of these jobs can be automated. The question is, like, if someone uses this to automate their own job, will they just be sitting there, you know, watching reels in the small corner and when their boss comes by, they alt tab so that they're looking, oh, I'm still working really hard. Nothing's been automated. These AI models are slow. I definitely still need my job. Where does the value accrue? Who's reclaiming the value? I mean, we did talk to a friend who was saying that, you know, someone who has some sort of desk job has been Effectively automated by ChatGPT, but just spends all day golfing now. And the boss doesn't know that the job's been automated because the boss. Yeah, we might see a bull market and water cooler talk. Ooh, yeah.

That trigger Flashbang. Then I want to be able to see my list. Lambda is the super intelligence cloud. Building AI, supercomputers for training and inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. Wait, you have a sound cue for Lambda now? Yes, I do.

So I'm just saying, like, I'm about to flashbang you. Okay. If you're, like, writing this, who's the audience? Like Apple, right? You want to make a change? Maybe. Okay, so it's. Like Ben. Thompson comes on yesterday. All I'm saying is that I'm excited for. I'm excited to be able to access Gemini with a button. I feel like that's what this deal is giving me. Yeah, that's nothing to do with an app. But also, after I access Gemini with this button that trigger flashbang, then I want to be able to see my list. It.

Like it's chatting to a helpful assistant. Like you're texting with a friend. You want to be able to scroll up and see. Yeah. If you think about it, it'd be very annoying if you had a real life assistant and they were like, you can only call me. Well, I won't. Tyler, explain. Explain your position. So it's not that. Oh, no. You flashbacked him. Hit him with a flashback. Sorry. Trying to help you out, John. Opinion denied. Tyler. Opinion denied. We have a flashback now on the stream. What? Good timing. So, Tyler, once the flashbang wears off, please tell us. Okay, so it's not that I disagree. I'm not like.